I remember reading the saga of Håkon Håkonsson last year. It said in the
preface that it was the first royal saga where the king is adressed in the
plural. In Snorris sagas, the kings are singular.



Terje

>From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
>Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [norse_course] Re: engu játum vér öðru en þessu er vér höfum áðr
>ætlat
>Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:11:17 -0000
>
>
>
>Dear Fernando,
>
>Interesting. Do the continental king's mirrors share this
>explanation? I wonder if the reason given in Konungs skuggsiá could
>be a rationalisation of a common linguistic tendency, found all over
>the world. In a lot of languages the issue of the 2nd person plural
>becomes fraught. It often becomes embarrassing and impolite to use
>the normal direct mode of address, perhaps because it carries
>unwanted associations of commands and insults: "Oi you!" (and
>worse!), and different languages develop various perephrastic
>strategies.
>
>On the other hand, the present British monarchs have the formula "My
>government and I". And one's pronouncements certainly seem to carry
>more weight if they are presented in the plural, as if to say that
>it's impossible to argue with this, because it's the universally
>held opinion. Another idea someone suggested to me was that the
>plural might imply "me and God", since so many documents and
>pronouncements were made in Christian times "in the name of God".
>Of course, these are modern *speculations*...
>
>I just had a casual look in Beowulf, and as far as I can see Hroþgar
>is always modestly singular, both in his own speeches, and when
>Beowulf addresses him. The late 7th century West Saxon laws
>begin "Ic Ine..." The English king Ælfred sometimes uses 3rd person
>of himself, but reverts to 1st singular, rather than plural. The
>Gothic Bible follows the Greek in making Herod and Pilot singular.
>What was normal in Latin? Julius Caesar refers to himself in the
>3rd person, but what did the Roman Emperors do?
>
>I see in Konungs skuggsiá the king actually uses 1st sg., although
>his son addresses him in the plural. Do you know of any relevant
>runic inscriptions?
>
>Llama Nom
>
>
>
>
>--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Guerrero"
><cualfer@...> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Fernando Guerrero
> > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: engu játum vér öðru en þessu er
>vér höfum áðr ætlat
> >
> >
> > Dear Llama,
> >
> > Concerning the fact that kings are usually referred to in the
>plural of the frirst person; there are several references to it
>which you may find interesting.There is a very good explanation for
>the fact in Konungsskugja (The King's Miror) an ON version of the
>continental king's mirrors. Even though the source is late, it is
>just as late as any of the sagas. In there it is explained that
>since the king represents the sciety as a whole, therefore he must
>be addressed in the plural, as he himself is not a singe person, but
>an institution representing himself andall his people.
> > I don'tknow if tis was also applied to the pre-Christian kings,
>but, since all the saga material is Chrstian, it would be worth
>doing some research in the few older sources that we have in order
>to find out if this was an imporo or also a traditional way of
>addressing the kings and petty kings before AD 1000.
> > Very good point, and maybe worth researching.
> >
> >
> > Fernando Guerrero
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fernando Guerrero
> > Centre for Medieval Studies
> > University of York
> > York
> > YO1 7EP
> > Northern Yorkshire
> > Uk
>
>
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: llama_nom
> > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:33 PM
> > > Subject: [norse_course] engu játum vér öðru en þessu er
>vér
> > höfum áðr ætlat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > I wonder if anyone can tell me why Auðun "goes plural"
>here?
> > In Old
> > > Norse, as in English, I think it's normal for a king to
>talk
> > of
> > > himself as "we", and Auðun very wisely addresses Harald
>with
> > > respectful 2nd person plural pronouns (yðru, þér), but
>is it
> > unusual
> > > for someone non-royal to call themselves "we" in front
>of a
> > king?
> > >
> > > I was just wondering if this was intended to add to the
>humour
> > of an
> > > already quite fun scene, that poor little Auðun very
> > respectfully
> > > and innocently talks back to the king, as if his own
>decisions
> > carry
> > > as much weight as whatever the great Harald might decide-
>-and
> > the
> > > fact that the king good humouredly ignores the affront,
>or is
> > rather
> > > amused by it himself.
> > >
> > > Llama Nom
>
>
>
>

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