From: Terje Ellefsen
Message: 4683
Date: 2004-12-08
>From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [norse_course] Re: engu játum vér öðru en þessu er vér höfum áðr
>ætlat
>Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:11:17 -0000
>
>
>
>Dear Fernando,
>
>Interesting. Do the continental king's mirrors share this
>explanation? I wonder if the reason given in Konungs skuggsiá could
>be a rationalisation of a common linguistic tendency, found all over
>the world. In a lot of languages the issue of the 2nd person plural
>becomes fraught. It often becomes embarrassing and impolite to use
>the normal direct mode of address, perhaps because it carries
>unwanted associations of commands and insults: "Oi you!" (and
>worse!), and different languages develop various perephrastic
>strategies.
>
>On the other hand, the present British monarchs have the formula "My
>government and I". And one's pronouncements certainly seem to carry
>more weight if they are presented in the plural, as if to say that
>it's impossible to argue with this, because it's the universally
>held opinion. Another idea someone suggested to me was that the
>plural might imply "me and God", since so many documents and
>pronouncements were made in Christian times "in the name of God".
>Of course, these are modern *speculations*...
>
>I just had a casual look in Beowulf, and as far as I can see Hroþgar
>is always modestly singular, both in his own speeches, and when
>Beowulf addresses him. The late 7th century West Saxon laws
>begin "Ic Ine..." The English king Ælfred sometimes uses 3rd person
>of himself, but reverts to 1st singular, rather than plural. The
>Gothic Bible follows the Greek in making Herod and Pilot singular.
>What was normal in Latin? Julius Caesar refers to himself in the
>3rd person, but what did the Roman Emperors do?
>
>I see in Konungs skuggsiá the king actually uses 1st sg., although
>his son addresses him in the plural. Do you know of any relevant
>runic inscriptions?
>
>Llama Nom
>
>
>
>
>--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Guerrero"
><cualfer@...> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Fernando Guerrero
> > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: engu játum vér öðru en þessu er
>vér höfum áðr ætlat
> >
> >
> > Dear Llama,
> >
> > Concerning the fact that kings are usually referred to in the
>plural of the frirst person; there are several references to it
>which you may find interesting.There is a very good explanation for
>the fact in Konungsskugja (The King's Miror) an ON version of the
>continental king's mirrors. Even though the source is late, it is
>just as late as any of the sagas. In there it is explained that
>since the king represents the sciety as a whole, therefore he must
>be addressed in the plural, as he himself is not a singe person, but
>an institution representing himself andall his people.
> > I don'tknow if tis was also applied to the pre-Christian kings,
>but, since all the saga material is Chrstian, it would be worth
>doing some research in the few older sources that we have in order
>to find out if this was an imporo or also a traditional way of
>addressing the kings and petty kings before AD 1000.
> > Very good point, and maybe worth researching.
> >
> >
> > Fernando Guerrero
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fernando Guerrero
> > Centre for Medieval Studies
> > University of York
> > York
> > YO1 7EP
> > Northern Yorkshire
> > Uk
>
>
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: llama_nom
> > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:33 PM
> > > Subject: [norse_course] engu játum vér öðru en þessu er
>vér
> > höfum áðr ætlat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > I wonder if anyone can tell me why Auðun "goes plural"
>here?
> > In Old
> > > Norse, as in English, I think it's normal for a king to
>talk
> > of
> > > himself as "we", and Auðun very wisely addresses Harald
>with
> > > respectful 2nd person plural pronouns (yðru, þér), but
>is it
> > unusual
> > > for someone non-royal to call themselves "we" in front
>of a
> > king?
> > >
> > > I was just wondering if this was intended to add to the
>humour
> > of an
> > > already quite fun scene, that poor little Auðun very
> > respectfully
> > > and innocently talks back to the king, as if his own
>decisions
> > carry
> > > as much weight as whatever the great Harald might decide-
>-and
> > the
> > > fact that the king good humouredly ignores the affront,
>or is
> > rather
> > > amused by it himself.
> > >
> > > Llama Nom
>
>
>
>