Hi Terje,
Thanks for that. I'm going to look more carefully at pronouns from
now on! Even in Auðun, kings vary in their usage, sometimes calling
themselves "we", sometimes "I", though I think Auðun sticks to
addressing them in the plural. Elsewhere, in the few things I know,
it seems to me that it's more common for subordinates and guests to
address a king in the 2nd person plural, than it is for kings to use
1st person plural pronouns of themselves. Looking in Heimskringla
just now, there are indeed sigular forms used both ways. Is this
the rule there?
On the other hand, in the extract from Egils saga in Gordon &
Taylor's "Introduction to Old Norse", Arinbjörn adresses King Eiríkr
in the plural at first--maybe to emphasise his respect--but later
suddenly:
"Ef þú, konungr, ok þit Gunnhildr hafið þat einráðit..." (If you,
king, you and Gunnhild, have made up your minds on this matter.)
I wonder if he's being deliberately provocative here, cunningly
suggesting that they king is letting his wife tell him what to do.
Eiríkr meanwhile uses singular forms of himself, but at one point
Gunnhildr (his queen) responds to Arinbjörn's offer that Egill
compose a paeon to Eiríkr with the words: "Vér viljum ekki lof hans
heyra." (We don't want to hear his praise.)--not dual, so maybe
not "the king and I"?
Later Arinbkrörn also says "Nú viljum vér vita, herra..." (Now we
want to know, lord...) But it's possible the we here is him and his
men. He might be emphasising the fact that he has supposrters to
back him up. Which I guess might be another motivation for kings to
adopt this form if they want to sound imperious.
Llama Nom
--- In
norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Ellefsen"
<radiorabia@...> wrote:
> I remember reading the saga of Håkon Håkonsson last year. It said
in the
> preface that it was the first royal saga where the king is
adressed in the
> plural. In Snorris sagas, the kings are singular.
>
>
>
> Terje
>
> >From: "llama_nom" <600cell@...>
> >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [norse_course] Re: engu játum vér öðru en þessu er vér
höfum áðr
> >ætlat
> >Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:11:17 -0000
> >
> >
> >
> >Dear Fernando,
> >
> >Interesting. Do the continental king's mirrors share this
> >explanation? I wonder if the reason given in Konungs skuggsiá
could
> >be a rationalisation of a common linguistic tendency, found all
over
> >the world. In a lot of languages the issue of the 2nd person
plural
> >becomes fraught. It often becomes embarrassing and impolite to
use
> >the normal direct mode of address, perhaps because it carries
> >unwanted associations of commands and insults: "Oi you!" (and
> >worse!), and different languages develop various perephrastic
> >strategies.
> >
> >On the other hand, the present British monarchs have the
formula "My
> >government and I". And one's pronouncements certainly seem to
carry
> >more weight if they are presented in the plural, as if to say that
> >it's impossible to argue with this, because it's the universally
> >held opinion. Another idea someone suggested to me was that the
> >plural might imply "me and God", since so many documents and
> >pronouncements were made in Christian times "in the name of God".
> >Of course, these are modern *speculations*...
> >
> >I just had a casual look in Beowulf, and as far as I can see
Hroþgar
> >is always modestly singular, both in his own speeches, and when
> >Beowulf addresses him. The late 7th century West Saxon laws
> >begin "Ic Ine..." The English king Ælfred sometimes uses 3rd
person
> >of himself, but reverts to 1st singular, rather than plural. The
> >Gothic Bible follows the Greek in making Herod and Pilot singular.
> >What was normal in Latin? Julius Caesar refers to himself in the
> >3rd person, but what did the Roman Emperors do?
> >
> >I see in Konungs skuggsiá the king actually uses 1st sg., although
> >his son addresses him in the plural. Do you know of any relevant
> >runic inscriptions?
> >
> >Llama Nom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Guerrero"
> ><cualfer@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Fernando Guerrero
> > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:34 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: engu játum vér öðru en þessu
er
> >vér höfum áðr ætlat
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Llama,
> > >
> > > Concerning the fact that kings are usually referred to in the
> >plural of the frirst person; there are several references to it
> >which you may find interesting.There is a very good explanation
for
> >the fact in Konungsskugja (The King's Miror) an ON version of the
> >continental king's mirrors. Even though the source is late, it is
> >just as late as any of the sagas. In there it is explained that
> >since the king represents the sciety as a whole, therefore he must
> >be addressed in the plural, as he himself is not a singe person,
but
> >an institution representing himself andall his people.
> > > I don'tknow if tis was also applied to the pre-Christian
kings,
> >but, since all the saga material is Chrstian, it would be worth
> >doing some research in the few older sources that we have in order
> >to find out if this was an imporo or also a traditional way of
> >addressing the kings and petty kings before AD 1000.
> > > Very good point, and maybe worth researching.
> > >
> > >
> > > Fernando Guerrero
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Fernando Guerrero
> > > Centre for Medieval Studies
> > > University of York
> > > York
> > > YO1 7EP
> > > Northern Yorkshire
> > > Uk
> >
> >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: llama_nom
> > > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 8:33 PM
> > > > Subject: [norse_course] engu játum vér öðru en þessu
er
> >vér
> > > höfum áðr ætlat
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello all,
> > > >
> > > > I wonder if anyone can tell me why Auðun "goes
plural"
> >here?
> > > In Old
> > > > Norse, as in English, I think it's normal for a king
to
> >talk
> > > of
> > > > himself as "we", and Auðun very wisely addresses
Harald
> >with
> > > > respectful 2nd person plural pronouns (yðru, þér),
but
> >is it
> > > unusual
> > > > for someone non-royal to call themselves "we" in
front
> >of a
> > > king?
> > > >
> > > > I was just wondering if this was intended to add to
the
> >humour
> > > of an
> > > > already quite fun scene, that poor little Auðun very
> > > respectfully
> > > > and innocently talks back to the king, as if his own
> >decisions
> > > carry
> > > > as much weight as whatever the great Harald might
decide-
> >-and
> > > the
> > > > fact that the king good humouredly ignores the
affront,
> >or is
> > > rather
> > > > amused by it himself.
> > > >
> > > > Llama Nom
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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