Sv: Re: Sv: Pronounciation of old norse (forgotten arcane dialects?)

>
> Takk, Sjuler.
> I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka.
> Your explanation below of " rð > l " explains why the dictionary is

called " Orlboka " instead of " Orðboka "

> as I would have expected.

I have been discussing the spelling 'rl' with Bo. He's really a fan
of it since in Standard Swedish (based on Central Swedish
dialects), 'rl' is pronunced as a retroflex l
('pärla', 'karl', 'arla', 'farlig' etc), which is quite similar to
the cacuminal l which has replaced 'rð' in Jamtlandic (and most other
non-danish and non-southwestern norwegian dialects).

I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees though, and he's
the boss...

>
> In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
>

I thought it was "Sjúrður".
16th (and 17th?) century Jamtlandic had 'Sjuler'; that's why I use
this nick. Dalecarlian has preserved the '-er' ending in the definite
form of (strong masculine) nouns. For example, 'vargen' [wArr´Gen]
(nom) vs 'vargin' [wArr´dZen] (ack) - 'the wolf'.

> I am enjoying very much the internet pages about the Dalecarlian

language.

> Sjuler, are you writing these pages?
>

Yes, and I am far from finished. I am hesitating about the
orthography though, especially how to write nasal vowels. I use 'ñ'
in the web pages at the moment.

> Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large number of

internet references to someone's work on producing a grammar and on-
line textbook on the Jamtska language.

Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?

> It is great that someone is preserving these languages.
> Can Gutniska be recovered?

Propago was trying a few years ago, but I haven't heard anything from
them. Their email addresses have stopped working, so I cannot contact
them :(

>
> Takk, Sjuler.
> Med vennligste hilsener,
> Paul Hansen.
>

Tack för visat intresse!
Hälsningar,
/Sjuler

>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/14/2004 3:35:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,

sjuler@... writes:

>
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I know the history of Jamtland since I am from the province myself
> > (and I know Bo Oscarsson, whose web pages -
> > http://w1.635.telia.com/~u63501054/ -
> > I assume you are referring to).
> > Jamtlandic used to be a pure Western Norse dialect, and my

ancestors

> > spread Western Norse as far east as into Finland (province of
> > Austrbotn). No far from the Baltic Sea, with Austrbotn not far

away

> > on the other side of the sea, people actually spoke like this in

mid

> > 14th century:
> >
> > "Vyrduleghum herra sinum herra Magnusi med guds nad
> > Noregs Swya ok Skane konongi h/oe/yllsa Lafrandz Gunnasson

logmader

> > j Jamtalande ok Siugurder Endridar sson vmbods madr Biarna

Erlings-

> > sonar j fyrnemfdo landæ q. g. ok sina audmiuka skylldugha

þ/oe/nosto.

> > yder vilium mit kunnigt gera at eftir bode ok brefui ydru min

herra

> > tokom mit prof a R/oe/fsundum j gilda skalanum a manadagin nesta

ef-

> > tir Bonofacii m/oe/sso a fimta are ok tuttugta rikis ydars min

herra

> > vm aftak *Hunælfs Alfuers sson er Olafuer Biarna sson vard aat

skada

> > vfirir syniu varo þar þa erfwingiar hins dauda logligha till

stemfdir.

> > Var þat aat vpphafue vidratto þæira at Olafuer ok Hunæfuer varo

til

> > gæst hia Jone iambr hafde þa Hunæfuer fyrnemfdr eina aar ok stak
> > Olaf j briostid firir ofwan geirwortuna so at Olafuer var lengi

krankr

> > af. sagde þa Hunæfuer at hann vildi eii gort hafua honom en

Olafuer

> > suarade. þat venter ek at þu gerdir þat firir engum ilvilia. baro
> > þetta ok suoro Biorn iambr ok Jon Þoriss sson at so var ord eftir

orde

> > sem nu er sagt. stod þetta þæira millium ual vm fim aar at þæir

varo

> > ekki sattir en fim vettrum lidnum komo þæir badir saman til
> > R/oe/fsunda ok var þa Olafuer j kirkiugardenum kom þa Hunæfuer
> > gangande j kirkiu garden ok talade till Olafs laat eii illa

Olafuer

> > min þar sem þik þr/oe/ngir enki vm. Þui nest stak Olafuer

oftnemfdan

> > Hunef j briostid med knifue ok sagde so. haf þetta firir hitt er
> > fyrri var. lifdi Hunæfuer nokora dagha eftir þat en þo do hann þar
> > af. suoro þetta Besse Berþors sson ok Ketill Skeggia sson at so

var

> > sem nu er sagt. Tokom mit ok viglysingar vitni þæira manna er so
> > heita ok so suoro a bok Gregorius Jorundar sson ok Helgho Vestars
> > dottor at Olafuer oftnemfdr kom till þæira samd/oe/ghers sem hann
> > hafde þat vigh wnnit ok lysti firir þæim at þat sem Hunæfuer fæk

af

> > mik huart sem hann fær þar af bott ædr bana þa gerdi þat engin

vttan

> > ek. var þetta vigh wnnit a fiorda aare ok tuttugta rikiss ydars

min

> > herra. Var ok bodin ydr þæghn min herra ok frendonum b/oe/tr eftir
> > godra manna dome. Ok till sannenda at mit fengum eii meiri vissu

ok

> > marghir adrir godir men med okkr af þessu profue settom mit okkorr
> > insigli firir þetta profs bref er gort var a deghi ok are sem fyr
> > segir."
> >
> >
> > BTW, my nick 'Sjuler' is 16th century flavor of 14th century

Sjugurðr

> > (Icelandic: Sigurður'). Modern Jamtlandic would be 'Sjul'. Note

the

> > rð > l development here.
> >
> > Compare the Eastern Jamtlandic mid 14th century language in the

text

> > above with the following Up-Swedish text (Yngre Västmannalagen)

from

> > early 14th century:
> >
> > "Gæfwer faþer ællær moþer eno barne mera æn andro. hafwe mæþan þön
> > lifwa. oc æcke længær. siþan scal þæt til skift bæra. mæþ þera

manna

> > witnom þær hos waro þær faþer ællær moþer utt gaff. oc tolf manna
> > eþe. oc siþan sin lot op bæra. hwart æfftær þy. þæt ær byrþom til
> > boret. §.1. Fæstir man cono. oc wighis mæþ hænne. ware þæghar full
> > giftning þera. swa som þön i sæng haffþen waret. §.2. Hafwe alldre
> > ængen wizorþ at wita barn i giffta sæng."
> >
> > One easily notices some differences in orthography, but the

samples

> > are too small to give real examples of differences. One is that

Old

> > Jamtlandic has 'þui' (dative of 'þat' =neut. 'it') and Old Up-
> > Swedish 'þy' (dative of 'þæt' =neut. 'it'), though. Still today we
> > notice this difference since Jamtlandic has 'di' and Swedish 'ty'.
> >
> > Today, Dalecarlian is the most arcane language of Mainland
> > Scandinavia since Faroy Gutnish - in principle unchanged between
> > medieval age to 1900 - is extincted.
> > Jamtlandic is more or less like any Northern Swedish dialect, but
> > slightly more Norwegian/Tröndish and slightly less arcane.
> >
> > Currently, I find Estonian-Norse qite interesting.
> >
> > /Sjuler
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass <egass@...> wrote:
> > > Perhaps, it is important to remember the political implications
> > applying to the growth of the Swedish Kingdom. Sweden conquered

other

> > small domain around them and incorporated them, often uneasily,

into

> > its "empire". It isn't only Dalska that is "different". So is
> > Jamtish, Gutnish, asf. I refer you to the internet urls from
> > Jamtland. One contains a rather interesting history of how that
> > (really Norwegian) province went through turmoil during the

medieval

> > period as it went back and forth, and describes the suffering the
> > Jamtish population endured from the wars and occupations.
> > >
> > > Erek
> > >
> > >
> > > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
> > > Konrad, what about those Norse dialects that were not in any way
> > > written down on paper? What did Norse spoken in Northern Sweden
> > sound
> > > like, for example? Of course, we don't know. My point here is

that

> > a
> > > statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the most

conservative

> > > branch, often markedly so." is based only on the written

records.

> > > POerhaps Northern SCandinavians still spoke Viking age Norse in
> > > Medieval times. We don't know, and therefore one should restrict
> > > oneself to a statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the

most

> > > conservative branch amongst the known Norse dialects, often
> > markedly
> > > so."
> > >
> > > BTW, since Icelandic did preserve vocabulary, grammar etc in an
> > > almost uncanny way, but did not preserve stuff like pitch

accent,

> > > short and over-long syllable lengths and nasal vowels, it may be
> > > interesting to listen to a dialect that did. Here are some sound
> > > samples:
> > >
> > > http://www.unilang2.org/wiki2/wiki.phtml?
> > > title=Dalecarlian_sound_samples
> > >
> > > Konrad, any comments on it?
> > >
> > > /Sjuler
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson"
> > > <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
> > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Berglaug Ásmundardóttir
> > > > <berglauga@...> wrote:
> > > > > Sjuler wrote: "As far as I know, the only sound which

Icelandic

> > > has
> > > > preserved better than all other Scandinavian dialects is the

þ-

> > > sound
> > > > (like 'th' in English 'thing')."
> > > >
> > > > > Don't forget our lovely unvoiced resonants, which all you
> > > > scandinavians seem to have lost in some freak accident! ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > unvoiced r, l, m, n are fun to say!
> > > >
> > > > Lovely, I might add ;)
> > > >
> > > > > and wouldn't ð also be a 'preserved sound'?
> > > >
> > > > Yes, no doubt.
> > > >
> > > > > i'm well aware that icelandic isn't anything like old norse
> > was,
> > > > but really, it's mostly in the vowels and their surroundings
> > (that
> > > > would be lenght of syllables), the consonant changes are

minimal.

> > > >
> > > > I agree. ll, nn, g between vowels(segir), maybe final d/b
> > > (land/lamb)
> > > > and a few others. Not much of a change at all. However, as you
> > > point
> > > > out, the vowel-system is changed. I would say quite radically

so.

> > > If
> > > > we had a living speaker, however, I think we could learn it
> > without
> > > > having to learn the whole language over again.
> > > >
> > > > (hmm.. same as with english,
> > > > > really, their vowels are all messy nowadays.. compared to a
> > > > thousand years ago, at least)
> > > >
> > > > English is nowhere near the same tongue it was a thousand

years

> > > ago.
> > > > The price of an empire, I suppose.
> > > >
> > > > I think what students need to understand about old

pronunciation

> > is
> > > > this: there were many 'old norse' languages and just as many

ways

> > > of
> > > > pronouncing them. In Sweden, for instance, we had the

Gautlandic

> > of
> > > > east and west, Swedish proper, Gutnish and others. In my

opinion,

> > > it
> > > > was the Old Gutnish that was the 'jewel of the east' -
> > > conservative
> > > > like the oldest West Norse, but with a radically differing
> > > phonology
> > > > and even usage. Danish was also markedly different in
> > > pronunciation,
> > > > and to some extent in usage and vocabulary, from West Norse.

The

> > > way
> > > > I see it, one of the main advantages of old West Norse is

that it

> > > is
> > > > considered to have been very uniform (einsleit). Because

Faroese

> > > and
> > > > Icelandic were once the same language as West Norwegian,

matching

> > > on
> > > > vocabulary and usage as well, we can get a fairly good idea of
> > how
> > > > it was pronounced by comparing the how these tongues are
> > pronounced
> > > > today and doing the math. Although it had the most complicated
> > > vowel-
> > > > system (through more mutations) and the least speakers of any
> > > nordic
> > > > tongue from the 9-10 centuries, West Norse is now by far the
> > > easiest
> > > > tongue to reconstruct, as there is a firm basis for

comparison.

> > > This
> > > > is ironic, perhaps, given the numerical inferiority ;)
> > Fortunately,
> > > > West Norse was the most conservative branch, often markedly

so.

> > > Only
> > > > Gutnish equals its antiquity. Shamefully, Gutnish was

neglected,

> > > set
> > > > out to die and never used as a literary tongue. Our only book

in

> > > the
> > > > tongue was written in the early 14th century. Fortunately, it

is

> > > old
> > > > enough to give us some idea of the tongue in its golden age. I
> > > think
> > > > we are very lucky, on the other hand, that Old Icelandic was

used

> > > as
> > > > a literary tongue in the west as early as 1100-1130, when the
> > > tongue
> > > > was only slightly changed from its golden age.
> > > >
> > > > Vesið ér heil (pronun.: uesið êr hæil (short æ+i -

between

> > ei &
> > > ai ;)
> > > >
> > > > Konrad
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Konrad
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Berglaug
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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