From: xigung
Message: 4157
Date: 2004-02-11
> Hi Xigungemitting strange characters :)
>
> Thanks for your comments and it's good to see your computer is still
>following ways it can occur:
> Regarding the formation of adverbs from adjectives, Gordon, list the
>gjarn; -i, as in lengi, from langr; -an,as in jafnan, saman, fram
> 1. By means of suffixes, namely -a, as in illa, gjarna from illr,
> 2. from special uses of particular cases: gen sg alls (partitive,passing into degree); dat sg neut miklu (degree); acc sg alt "all the
> 3. the neut sg of most adjs could be used as an adverb: sárt ertuleikinn 'sorely art thou treated.'
>'illr' to use my example, would become type 1 'illa' rather than type
> However, Gordon gives no rule to guide us in distinguishing why
>þann veg til gõrr' is really the subject of the sentence rather than
> Turning to my particular example, I would consider that 'at þú ert
>you meant it but your explanation completely supported my argument
> With respect to your comments on the use of 'ekki,' I don´t know if
>óstri
> Kveðja
> Alysseann
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xigung [mailto:xigung@...]
> Sent: Friday, 6 February 2004 6:06 AM
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hrafnkel 152-176 / Laurel
>
> > 154. 'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, f=
> > My translation: ââ¬Ë(It) seems to me, that you are thus treated badl=y,
> my fosterling,â¬Ëgõrr
> > Other translations: ââ¬Å"It seems to me (I think it)
> evil/unpleasant/bad that your are treated thus, my foster son,
> >
> > In this sentence, I think ââ¬Ëillaââ¬â¢ is an adverb modifying â=
> tilââ¬â¢rather than an adjective. If it was an adjective wouldnââ¬â=¢t it be
> ââ¬Ëilltââ¬Â ie the nom sg neuter form? There is a similar situatio=n
> 166: Einarr svarar: 'Illa hefir mér at farit,ââ¬â¢ where some have=adjective)
> translated ââ¬Ëillaââ¬â¢ as ââ¬Ësomething badââ¬â¢ (ie as an =
> in,')
> I think it is an adverb, ie: ââ¬ËIt has fared badly with me.ââ¬â¢
>
> My immediate understanding of this sentence is slightly different.
> "illa þykkir mér" is the first unit, or partial sentence.
> But it is incomplete without an accusative object, which is
> typically a "þat" and that may be used to fill out the empty
> slot thus: "illa þykkir mér þat" (bad seems to me 'you_know_what=
> But in the actual sentence the þat-slot has been replacedr
> by the subclause "at þú ert þann veg til görr", typically
> beginning with the conjunction "at". Thus, instead of qualifying
> þat (demonstrative sg.n.acc.), illa now qualifies the whole
> sub-clause that has replaced the slot-word þat. And so it is
> the whole condition of the horse which is qualified by "illa".
> Thus, "illa", as I see it, does not qualify a single noun or
> verb in the sub clause, but the whole sub clause.
>
> Looking in my dictionary, I see your point, though, that
> 'illa' is the adverbial form, whereas the adjective form
> is 'illr' in its 24 adaptions.
>
> If you then have followed my way of thinking above,
> where I did not reflect on the point you raise here,
> I would say that when 'illa' qualifies a condition/state-of-affairs
> described by a sub-clause, it would mainly qualify
> the verb of the sub clause, hence the adverbial form.
>
> Simpler is to see it as adverbial qualifier of the verb
> in the first clause, þykkja. For example, replacing
> 'to think' by 'to rain', you might want to say in
> English: "It rains badly [on me]".
> Then 'badly' is adverb to the verb 'rain'.
> However, if you say "It rains bad [stuff] on me",
> the 'bad' is adjective to the suppressed 'stuff'.
> In the case at hand, "illa" may either be seen as
> qualifying þykkja or as qualifying the sub-clause
> that starts with 'at'. I do not know what the right
> answer is, or if there is a way to find it out.
>
>
>
> There is something that I don't understand here, and that
> is how adverbs are formed from adjectives. What is the rule?
> Why is it 'illa' that is the adverb corresponding to 'illr'
> and not some other form. I am not sure what the rule is here.
> I can try to look it up. Any way, in actual practice
> you don't worry about it, but just remember the example
> 'illa þykkir mér..' and whenever you use it, always follow
> that paradigma. But I agree that there ought to be a
> grammatical explanation.
>
> >
> > 157. Far þú til liðs þÃÂns.'
> > My translation: Go (you) to your herd
> > Other translations: Go now to your mares.ââ¬Â, ââ¬Å"Go back to you=
> >inal and
> > Comment: ââ¬Ënowââ¬â¢ and ââ¬Ëbackââ¬â¢ are not in the orig=
> > be included in a literal translation.ngââ¬â¢ or
> " Go you to your 'army' ".
> ('army'= lið = heap of individuals, group, flock)
>
> > 161. ÃËxi hafði hann àhendi, en ekki fleira vápna.
> > My translation: He had an axe in (his) hand, but not more weapons.
> > Other translations: He had an ax in hand, but no more/other weapons.
> >
> > Comment: ââ¬Ëekkiââ¬â¢ can be a neut pronoun meaning ââ¬Ënothi=
> adverb meaning ââ¬Ënotââ¬â¢, but I donââ¬â¢t think it can be use=d to mean
> â¬â¢.t least)
> Thus, I think it is used here as an adverb. There are a number of
> other places where I think it is also being used as an adverb: four
> times between lines 168-171, where others have, in some cases,
> translated it as ââ¬Ëno.ââ¬â¢ I notice that the text seems (to me a=
> to use both ââ¬Ëekkiââ¬â¢ and ââ¬Ëeigiââ¬â¢ almost interchang=eably for the
>examples
> ââ¬Ënotââ¬â¢ (see line 172, for example, immediately following the =
> of ââ¬Ëekkiââ¬â¢ I mentioned. Would one normally expect this in asingle text
> or am I missing something?na.
>
> I think you have to use the method of "filling out" here,
> i.e. replace by:
> 161. ÃËxi hafði hann àhendi, en ekki hafði hann fleira váp=
>sense
> Then you will see that the structure is
> A, but not B.
> The word 'en' then is a conjunction tying together two
> partial statements A and B. 'ekki' in front of statement B
> then signifies the abnegation of statement B,
> i.e. " he did n o t have more weapons [than the axe] ".
>
> > 167. en nú er fundinn.'
> > but now are found.ââ¬Â
> >
> > Question: why is the 3rd pers sg ââ¬Ëerââ¬â¢ used here, when the =
> would suggest plural ââ¬Ëeruââ¬â¢?rather than
>
> Good question!
> If the 'found' refers to the sheep (sauðr m., pl. sauðir),
> then it ought to have been
> "sem nú eru fundnir"
> But in the preceding sentence you used an unclear form
> of the verb vera. If the original ON said "vart"
> it is clear that the group of sheep is seen as a unit,
> hence singular. But I'd like to look at the original ON
> first, before I am completely sure.
>
>
>
> >
> > 168. Hann kvazk ekki at slÃÂku telja.
> > My translation: He (Hrafnkel) declared himself (that he was) not to
> count (object to) such.
> > Other translation: He didnââ¬â¢t speak to object at such.
> >
> > Comment: I think ââ¬Ëekkiââ¬â¢ is modifying ââ¬Ëteljaââ¬â¢ =
> ââ¬â¢Ã´confessââ¬â¢ and
>
> Here, in logical notation:
> A said B
> A said not B.
> 'not B' then stands for the logical opposite of the whole statement B.
> In Hamlet: " To be or not to be, that is the question ".
> Here: " To count or not to count...."
> You see that english can also put 'not' before 'to'.
> But I think you are right that the 'ekki' in front of the 'at'
> as a consequence affects the verb in statement B.
>
>
>
> >
> > 176. en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'
> > My translation: but still you have
> intended/meant/behaved/proceeded/acted well.
> > Other translations: but nevertheless you have readily confessed.
> >
> > Comment: I note that Gordon glosses ââ¬Ëganga viðââ¬â¢ as
> Zoega as ââ¬Ëavow.ââ¬â¢ Zoega also gives the middle voice ââ¬Ëga=ngast
> sââ¬Ëgangast við=
> ââ¬Ëto confess.ââ¬â¢ My modern Icelandic dictionary only gives
> ââ¬â¢¢ Without
> as ââ¬Ëto confessââ¬â¢ with no entry for ââ¬Ëganga við.ââ¬â=
>sense
> aids my initial translation was that ôganga við velââ¬â¢ had the=
> that Einar had acted with good intentions throughout the episode, notnse
> only in owning up to riding Freyfaxi, but also in trying to carry out
> his shepherds duty. I would be interested in any opinions regarding
> whether ôganga viðââ¬â¢ might have the meaning I indicated.
> >
>
> Well, at least in Danish and Norwegian "ÃÂ¥ vedgÃÂ¥" means to admit
> something, such as 'to admit guilt'. The composite verb is formed
> from 'ÃÂ¥ gÃÂ¥' (to go) plus the preposition 'ved' (by, at).
> By putting the preposition in front of the verb, you have composed
> a new verb 'ÃÂ¥ ved-gÃÂ¥' that means to admit -- that is, not in the se=
> of admitting someone to a building, but in the sense of acknowledgingtri minn,
> some act, or maybe some fact. (such as 2+2=4)
> The medio-passive form (-zk) then means that one admits something
> to oneself.
>
> Well, thank you very much for the thought excercises!
>
> Best
> Xigung
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Laurel Bradshaw [mailto:llawryf@...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2004 9:18 AM
> > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 152-176 / Laurel
> >
> > 'Hvat mun garprinn vilja, er hann er heim kominn?'
> > what - should - the gallant fellow - wish - that - he - towards home
> - came
> > "What should the gallant fellow want, that he has come back home?"
> >
> > segir Hrafnkell. 'Eigi mun þat góðu gegna.'
> > says - Hrafnkell - not - must - that - good - bode
> > said Hrafnkel. "That doesn't bode well."
> >
> >
> > SÃÂðan gekk hann út ok sér Freyfaxa ok mælti við hann:=
> > then - went - he - out - and - sees - Freyfaxi - and - says - to - him
> > Then he went out and saw Freyfaxi, and said to him:
> >
> > 'Illa þykkir mér, at þú ert þann veg til gõrr, fós=
> > unpleasing - it seems - to me - as regards - you - are - that -il,
> manner - treated - fosterling - of mine
> > "I am displeased at how you have been treated, my foster-son,
> >
> > en heima hafðir þú vit þitt, er þú sagðir mér t=
> > but - at home - had - you - wits - your - when - you - told - me -dag?'
> concerning this
> > but you had your wits about you when you told me of this.
> >
> > ok skal þessa hefnt verða. Far þú til liðs þÃÂns.'=
> > and - shall - this - avenged - be - go - you - to - herd - your
> > This will be avenged. Go to your herd."
> >
> >
> > En hann gekk þegar upp eptir dalnum til stóðs sÃÂns.
> > and - he - went - at once - up - along - the valley - to - stud - his
> > And he went immediately up the valley to his stud.
> >
> >
> > Hrafnkell ferr ÃÂ rekkju sÃÂna um kveldit
> > Hrafnkell - went - to - bed - his - in - the evening
> > Hrafnkel went to (his) bed that evening
> >
> > ok svaf af um nóttina.
> > and - slept - through - the night
> > and slept through the night.
> >
> > En um morguninn lét hann taka sér hest
> > and - in - the morning - let - he - take - himself - a horse
> > In the morning, he had a horse taken
> >
> > ok leggja á sõðul ok rÃÂðr upp til sels.
> > and - put - on - a saddle - and - rode - up - to - sheiling
> > and saddled for him, and rode up to the sheiling.
> >
> > Hann rÃÂðr àblám klæðum.
> > he - rode - in - black - clothing
> > He rode wearing black clothes.
> >
> > ÃËxi hafði hann àhendi, en ekki fleira vápna.
> > an ax - had - he - in - hand - but - no - more - weapons
> > He had an ax in his hand, but no other weapons.
> >
> > Þá hafði Einarr nýrekit fé àkvÃÂar.
> > then - had - Einarr - newly driven - livestock - into - sheepfold
> > Einar had just driven the sheep into the fold.
> >
> > Hann lá á kvÃÂagarðinum ok talði fé,
> > he - was lying - on - the sheepfold wall - and - counting - sheep
> > He was lying on the wall of the sheepfold, counting the sheep,
> >
> > en konur váru at mjólka.
> > and - women - were - at - milking
> > and the women were milking.
> >
> >
> > Þau heilsuðu honum.
> > they - greeted - him (Hrafnkell)
> > They greeted Hrafnkel.
> >
> >
> > Hann spurði, hversu þeim fà "ri (foeri) at.
> > he - asked - how - to them - were going - concerning
> > He asked how things had been going for them.
> >
> >
> > Einarr svarar: 'Illa hefir mér at farit,
> > Einarr - answered - unpleasing - has - to me - concerning - faring
> > Einar answered: "It hasn't been going well for me,
> >
> > þvàat vant varð þriggja tiga ásauðar nær viku,
> > because - lacking - were - three - of ten - ewes - nearly - a week
> > because thirty ewes were missing for nearly a week,
>
> This is confusing, because in ON it is either "vart" or váruð"
> But the form you quote is neither. I suspect you have mixed
> in thje modern Icelandic, but am not sure.
>
> >
> > en nú er fundinn.'
> > but - now - are - found
> > but now they've been found."
> >
> >
> > Hann kvazk ekki at slÃÂku telja.
> > he - said - not - about - such - to count
> > He (Hrafnkel) said that such things were of no account.
> >
> > 'Eða hefir ekki verr at farit?
> > and/or/but - has - nothing - worse - concerning - faring
> > "Hasn't anything worse happened?
> >
> > Hefir þat ok ekki svá opt til borit sem ván hefir at verit,
> > has - that - but/though - not - so - often - come to pass - that -
> expectation - has - happened
> > It hasn't occured as often as might be expected,
> >
> > at fjárins hafi vant verit.
> > that - of livestock - has - a lack - happened
> > that the sheep have gone missing.
> >
> > En hefir þú ekki nõkkut riðit Freyfaxa mÃÂnum hinn fyrra =
> > but - have - you - not - in any way - ridden - Freyfaxi - my - the -
> before - day
> > But didn't you ride my Freyfaxi yesterday?"
> >
> >
> > Hann kvezk eigi þræta þess mega.
> > he - said - not - deny - this - to be able
> > Einar said he couldn't deny it.
> >
> >
> > Hrafnkell svarar: 'Fyrir hvàreiztu þessu hrossi,
> > Hrafnkell - answered - for this reason - why - did you ride - this -
> horse
> > Hrafnkel answered: "For what reason did you ride this horse
> >
> > er þér var bannat, þar er hin váru nóg til,
> > which - to you - was - forbidden - where - it - was - sufficient -
> concerning
> > that was forbidden to you, when there were plenty of others
> >
> > er þér var lofat?
> > which - to you - were - permitted
> > that you had permission to take?
> >
> > Þar munda ek hafa gefit þér upp eina sõk,
> > there - would - I - have - given quarter - to you - up - one - offense
> > I would have forgiven you (this) one offense,
> >
> > ef ek hefða eigi svá mikit um mælt,
> > if - I - had - not - so - much - about it - said
> > if I had not sworn such a great (oath) about this,
> >
> > en þó hefir þú vel við gengit.'
> > but - nevertheless - have -you - readily - towards (this) - confessed
> > but nevertheless you have readily confessed."
> >
> >
> > ÷
>