Heill Xigung.

> That reminds me that they used to say Norðrlönd for Scandinavia
> in those days. But I did not find the term Norðrlenzk,
> formed in the same way as Íslenzk. (Icelandic)

It may never have seen used as such. Also, one wonders about how
Scandinavians before the wiking time understood their location in
the world ;)

> Dönsk tunga is has never quite been explained
> to my satisfaction. How can Swedes have spoken Danish?
> Of course the languages were quite similar, but the Danes
> appear late on the stage, whereas the Swedes are already mentioned
> hundreds of years earlier. (by Tacitus)

In my opinion, the best explanation of the term dönsk tunga derives
from archeaological research. During the period 200-600 or so, the
Danes are thought to have had political, and probably also military
control, over most of Norway and Sweden, probably all of Gautland,
for instance, and of Norway as far north as Þrándheimr. During this
period, the language would have been substantially the same in all
three of what constitutes the modern mainland countries. Given that
we are looking at the term 'norroena', let us now look at Norway in
this earlier period. Norway hosted several small nations, like the
Hörðar, Rygir, Þroendir, etc., each with its own þing and political
organization, but sharing a common language. None of these groups
was powerful enough in its own right to stand alone against Denmark,
which is where the real power was then, as later. The younger runic
alphbet, for instance, is known to have originated in Denmark, and
many scholars believe that the older one did as well, at least for
scandinavia. This would help to explain why Norway in particular,
being a less populated country than Denmark, then as now, and being
located further from the 'centers of civilization', is so unusually
rich in older runic inscriptions, which date from roughly the same
period that the Danes are thought to have had political contol over
most of Norway and Sweden. Now, it would not be unusual in the least
for the Norwegian peoples, nor for the Gautlandic ones, to refer to
this common administrative tongue as *danisku tungô, and to use PN
versions of phrases like the one Haukur quoted (um all danska tungu)
to refer to skandinavia as a whole or its people as such. During the
period in question, the language itself tells the story. However, we
also have to assume that the various small nations, which inhabited
Norway and Sweden during this time, used other region-specific terms
for their language, in addition to the formal *danisku tungô, which
is most likely derived from the name of the dominant national group
in Denmark. Thus, the term dönsk tunga in Old Norse is an archaism
of sorts, a formal inherited title from ancient times which was used
to refer to the entirety of Scandinavia, its language and peoples.
However, by the time the wiking time begins, there is no longer any
that Danish and Norwegian are separate tongues. One is West Norse
and the other East Norse, which can easily be proven from the extant
wiking time inscriptions. Did they understand each other? Yes, this
much is commonly agreed on, but the differences must have been very
noticable even to speakers around 900 AD. A Dane would not be able
to speak a single complete sentence to a West Norwegian without the
Norwegian immediately identifying him as a Dane or 'non-Norwegian'.
By this time, the was no R in West Norse, the vowel-systems were in
many respects dissimilar, the vocabulary and usage was different, as
can also be shown form Danish and Norwegian loanwords in English,
and there may have been differences of syntax as well. Still, basic
discussions between both groups would still have been fairly strait
forward, especially to people who had experience in both camps. It
was, after all, still the 'same' language. Given this situation, use
of the term dönsk tunga in 13th century Iceland would be a formality
of ancient date. By this time, the Danish and Iceland languages were
very different, as can be shown by old manuscripts ;) On the other
hand, Norwegian and Iceland showed amazingly few differences even as
late as the 13th century. Looking at the situation today, we could
still use dönsk tunga to refer to all of scandinavia and its people.
It still makes sense from an historical and cultural perspective, as
our ancestors knew. However, the language of Old Norway, especially
in west, Iceland and the Faroes is properly called Norroena during
roughly the 9th to 13th centuries - that is to say, until a handful
of noticible differences were finally in place. This is, no doubt,
the real reason behind the term norroena, as opposed to dönsk tonga.
The Norwegian, both before and after Haraldr Hárfagri, were aware
that tongues like Rygska, Þroenska, etc. were, in fact, the same in
all essential respects. Icelanders and Faroe Islanders, the other
two major groups speaking this same tongue, were also aware of this.
Thus, use of the common term norroena, and also norroent mál, must
have been universal in these groups, where dönsk tunga would merely
be a formal title by this time. Thus it is that for our purposes as
students today, the term norroena is the linguistically 'correct'
term for undivided West Norse (Færeyska, Íslenska, Þroenska, Rygska
and the whole Norska group). So the question should asked, how old
is the term norroena? Is it older than the wiking time? The answer
is, perhaps surprisingly, yes - absolutely, yes. Just take a look at
the word itself. It shows loss of medial þ, i-mutation of preceeding
ô and subsequent loss of i (in fact, of the Siever's sequence ij in
its entire), lowering to â and shortening to a. This word, in fact,
is from Proto-Norse *norþrônijô, where o is from a-mutation in the
numerically dominant norþra- forms (from PGmc *nurþra-). Fun stuff ;)

> Norroen means 'from the North' in opposition to Suðroenn
> 'from the South'. It is also used of winds, and maybe that
> makes it easier to take into English, because it is as if
> the north wind come 'running along' from the North, though

Norroena and 'old norse' are permanant fixtures at this point. When
we look at the moderm map of the world, we understand why ;)

> I don't think roenn actually comes from "renna".
> It might rather be norðr + oenn. Any one?

It's s kind of Proto-Norse formative suffix, the meaning of which
appears to have been 'like, characterized by, etc.'. It must have
been a rather rare suffix, judging from the 4 directional examples
that survive in Old Norse. A roots-dictionary might have something
to say about it. The Proto-Norse form was *-rônijô in the feminine
and *-rônijaR in the masculine, both showing a +i due to the long
preceeding syllable.

Best regards,
Konrad.

> With respect to the black color, one also has to remember
> that the viking ships were black. But whether they said
> svart or blar I am not sure. I have noticed that earth is
> often called svart, whereas clothes are often called blár.
> In the Edda there are svart horses, the Sun becomes svart,
> but Odin has a blar cape.
>
> Now I found something in the Snorra Edda, where he says:
> "Ljósálfar eru fegri en sól sýnum, en Dökkálfar eru svartari en

bik."

> So the "black elves" are not blár, but svartr, and he uses
> the expression "black as pitch", hence tar would be svartr,
> and by transference that would also be the colour of the viking

ships.

>
> I also have a note that says svartr was frequently used for
> the color of dark hair, usually of foreigners and slaves,
> e.g. "Atilla" Atli var grimmr maðr, mikill ok svartr...
> And here: 'Sörli, Hamdir, Erpr; þeir váru allir svartir
> sem hrafn á hárslít, sem Gunnarr ok Högni ok aðrir Niflungar.'
> "their hair was raven black" in other words.
>
> Best regards
> Xigung
>
>
>
>
> -- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, pdhanssen@... wrote:
> >
> > Takk, Haukur.
> >
> > Which saga is this quote from?
> > Hrolfs Saga Kraku?
> >
> > Takk, Haukur.
> > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > Paul.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > haukurth@... writes:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > It's not 'dansk tunga', but Norroen(a).
> > >
> > > You're both right - "dönsk tunga" or "Norroena".
> > >
> > > The term "dönsk tunga" is also used to mean
> > > "the territory where Norse is spoken" as in this text:
> > >
> > > "En fyrir því at Fróði var allra konunga ríkastr
> > > á norðrlöndum, þá var honum kendr friðrinn um
> > > alla danska tungu..."
> > >
> > > My translation: "And because Fróði was the most
> > > powerful of all kings in the northern lands the
> > > peace was attributed to him in all the Norse
> > > speaking world..."
> > >