Hello Xigung,

I wonder if sveicisms are just taking over old danicism rather than
pure Norwegian.

In my dialect (Jamtlandic) we say "una" with a long 'u' (a similar
development: 'pyne' from 'upp under' - here a late i-umlaut which is
quite common in Jamtlandic). E.g.:

'Dreg deg una sjagan!' - "Move away from the ladder!",
'Hållan dekk una frå soln!" - "Stay away (pl.) from the sun!",
'Legg una boka!' - "Put aside the book!",
'Gåkkom una na huskut nö!' - "Let's go quickly now!",
'Ma teg heim da una för una.' - "We win it bit by bit."

Some of the uses are probably borrowed at a later stage from Swedish,
I think. Impossible for me to guess which of them, if any.

Danish 'undgaa' would work in Swedish too: "undgå".


Regards,
Sjuler

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xigung" <xigung@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Sjuler,
> You provide some excellent examples of the exact thing
> I had in mind. I am not so fluent in Swedish that I can
> simply say "that's what they say in Sweden". It is because
> Norwegian and Swedish are too close, so that it becomes
> especially hard to keep them apart in all details.
> (That is probably why so many journalist are picking up
> so many "sveisims" these days. Half the time they may
> not even realize it.)
>
> In Norway it is usually "unna". That is because the
> "d" has disappeared -- time has rubbed it away.
> The n-final is also gone.
>
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
> > Hi Xigung,
> >
> > "But it doesn't necessarily mean "to run away" although in
dangerous
> > situation a certain quickness of motion would also be implied.
But an
> > escape from .e.g. a prison would, I think, also be a "komazk
undan".
> >
> >
> > In Modern Swedish, 'komma undan' means "get away from (something/-
> > one)". E.g. "Jag kom undan med n姲a skr孯r", meaning "I got away
> > with [only] a few scratches". Similar construction using 'undan'
are
> > possible:
> >
> > 'draga sig undan' - move out of the way,
> > 'h嬬a sig undan' - keep away,
> > 'l䧧a undan' - put aside,
> > 'g宧a undan' - go quickly,
> > 'undan f?ndan' - bit by bit,
> > etc
> You can say most of these in Norway too:
> Dra deg unna! Hold deg unna!
> Ligg unna! (= don't interfere with me/clear the road)
> Det gikk unna som bare det! etc..
>
> Come to think of it, Danish also has constructions
> of the type "undrage", "undgaa"
> which again reminds me of the corresponding German words
> entgehen, entfliehen, etc. (= to avoid and to escape)
>
> Best, Xigung
>
>
>
>
> >
> > The Swedish definition of the adverb 'undan' is "i riktning bort
frå® 
> > n姯n", translated "in direction away from something/-one".
> >
> > I wonder if Old Norse has expressions like
> >
> > *draga sik undan.
> > *halda sik undan,
> > *leggja undan,
> > *ganga undan,
> > *undan fyr undan,
> >
> > with the same meanings as in the Swedish examples.
> >
> > Regards,
> > /Sjurd
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xigung" <xigung@...> wrote:
> > > Hi Alan,
> > > That was funny!
> > > In my browser your message looked really strange! [at first]
> > > (the new char for the "euro" monetary unit appeared
> > > several times) and I couldn't understand anything
> > > of what you had written with ON chars.
> > >
> > >
> > > But then I went up to the browser's "View" menu,
> > > and chose "Character Coding" > "Auto Detect" > "Universal".
> > > I also had to choose from the "Character Coding" submenu
> > > the option "Unicode(UTF-8)", which is at the very bottom.
> > > When I did that, as if miraculously, the text cleared up,
> > > and I could read it as straight-forward Old Norse".
> > > I think, with your system, you might also be able
> > > to go outside the old 255-char iso-scheme. Have you tried?
> > >
> > > Best
> > > Xigung
> > >
> > > P.S. With respect to the phrase "ganga undan", I have a
> > > feeling that it simply means "to go away". The reason
> > > is that directional information or instructions are often
> > > indicated by means of adverbs ending with the syllable -an.
> > > An example from the Edda is Vsp. 4: "Sól skein sunnann á salar
> > > steinar." (the Sun shone from the South onto the [ground's]
stones)
> > > You can say that in this example the ending -an has the meaning
> > > of "from", i.e. is a directional indicator.
> > >
> > > "Below" in the sense of being situated on a lower level
> > > [than something else] is described by the preposition/adverb
> > > "undir". "Undan" does not solely refer to a strictly
> > > vertical line of positioning/motion, but can just as often be
> > > a reference to a motion "away from" something/someone.
> > >
> > > But it doesn't necessarily mean "to run away" although
> > > in dangerous situation a certain quickness of motion
> > > would also be implied. But an escape from .e.g. a prison
> > > would, I think, also be a "komazk undan".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Thompson"
<athompso@...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi Sarah
> > > >
> > > > Even though both versions make sense, the more I think about
I’m
> > > still not convinced your interpretation is incorrect.
> > > >
> > > > The interpretation: “And those (horses) which never were
> > accustomed
> > > to run away from a man, now (unexpectedly) were (man)-shy”
hinges
> > on
> > > “ganga undan” being translated as “run away” which is
> > consistent wi=
> > > th
> > > Zoega’s definition “to escape, to absent oneself”
> > > >
> > > > The interpretation: “And those (horses) which never were
> > accustomed
> > > to be ridden by a man, now (predictably) were man-shy” hinges on
> > > “ganga undan” , literally “to walk from beneath” being
> > interpreted =
> > > as
> > > “to be ridden by” which to me, on face value, could be
> > construed; but
> > > I guess one would have to know if there were other examples
from the
> > > literature of it being used in this sense.
> > > >
> > > > Note also: gramatically, manni is dat sg of maðr, not pl.
> > > >
> > > > Question: Why is it skjõrr and not skjõr, in the neuter nom
pl
> > form?
> > > >
> > > > Alysseann
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Sarah Bowen [mailto:bowensli@...]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:33 AM
> > > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 101-125 / Laurel's
> > > >
> > > > Hi Laurel!
> > > >
> > > > I find it so helpful to do these translations as a group
because
> > you
> > > get the benefit of another person´s perspective. I understood
> > > >
> > > > ok váru þau nú skjõrr, er aldri váru võn at ganga undan
> > manni,
> > > > and - were - these - now - shy - which - never - were -
> > accustomed -
> > > to - going - away from - people
> > > > but these (horses), which never used to run away from people,
were
> > > now skittish,
> > > >
> > > > completely differently!!
> > > > I had it as [literally] the horses were never used to walk
under a
> > > man - i.e. they were not used to being ridden (and so were
> > skittish)!!
> > > oops!
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Sarah.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: HYPERLINK "mailto:llawryf@..."Laurel Bradshaw
> > > > To: HYPERLINK
> >
> "mailto:norse_course@yahoogroups.com"norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:41 PM
> > > > Subject: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 101-125 / Laurel's
> > > >
> > > > Einarr kvað sér eigi mundu svá meingefit at ríða þeim hesti,
> > > > Einarr - declared - himself - not - should - so - maliciously
> > > inclined - to - ride - this - horse
> > > > Einar said that he would not be so ill-minded as to ride this
> > horse,
> > > >
> > > > er honum var bannat, ef þó væri mõrg õnnur til.
> > > > which - to him - was - forbidden - if - yet - were - many -
> > others -
> > > towards
> > > > which was forbidden to him, especially if there were many
others
> > to use.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Einarr ferr nú heim eptir klæðum sínum ok flytr heim á Að
> > alból.
> > > > Einarr - goes - now - home - after - clothing - his - and -
> > removed
> > > - home - to - Aðalból
> > > > Einar then went home to get his clothing and moved over to
> > Adalbol.
> > > >
> > > > Síðan var fŦ#34;rt (foert) í sel fram í Hrafnkelsdal,
> > > > afterwards - was - brought - within - shieling - forward -
in -
> > > Hrafnkelsdalr
> > > > After that (the sheep) were driven to a shieling in the upper
part
> > > of Hrafnkel's Valley,
> > > >
> > > > þar sem heitir á Grjótteigsseli.
> > > > where - was called - Grjótteigssel
> > > > which was called the Grjotteig shieling.
> > > >
> > > > Einari ferr allvel at um sumarit,
> > > > Einarr - goes - very well - concerning - during - the summer
> > > > Einar fared very well at it during the summer,
> > > >
> > > > svá at aldri verðr sauðvant fram allt til miðsumars,
> > > > so - that - never - happens - missing sheep - from - all the
way -
> > > to - midsummer
> > > > so that no sheep were lost in all the time up to midsummer,
> > > >
> > > > en þá var vant nær þremr tigum ásauðar eina nótt.
> > > > but - then - was - lacking - nearly - three - of ten - of
ewe -
> > one
> > > night
> > > > but then one night nearly thirty ewes were missing.
> > > >
> > > > Leitar Einarr um alla haga ok finnr eigi.
> > > > seeks - Einarr - about - all - pastures - and - finds - not
> > > > Einar searched all the pastures and found nothing.
> > > >
> > > > Honum var vant nær viku.
> > > > to him - was - lack - nearly - a week
> > > > They were missing for almost a week.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Þat var einn morgin, at Einarr gekk út snimma,
> > > > it - was - one - morning - that - Einarr - goes - out - early
> > > > Einar went out early one morning,
> > > >
> > > > ok er þá létt af allri sunnanþokunni ok úrinu.
> > > > and - is - then - lifted - off - all - the mist from the
south -
> > and
> > > - the drizzle
> > > > and the mist from the south and the drizzle had all cleared.
> > > >
> > > > Hann tekr staf í hõnd sér, beizl ok þófa.
> > > > he - takes - a staff - in - hand - his - a bridle - and - a
> > saddle-pad
> > > > He took a staff in his hand, a bridle and a saddle-cloth.
> > > >
> > > > Gengr hann þá fram yfir ána Grjótteigsá.
> > > > goes - he - then - forward - over - the river - Grjótteigsá
> > > > He went across the river Grjotteigsa (Grjotteig River),
> > > >
> > > > Hon fell fyrir framan selit.
> > > > it - flows - in front of - forward - the shieling
> > > > which flowed down from the shieling.
> > > >
> > > > En þar á eyrunum lá fé þat, er heima hafði verit um kveldit.
> > > > and - there - on - the gravel banks - lie - livestock -
which - at
> > > home - had - been - during - the evening
> > > > There, lying on the gravel banks, were the sheep that had
been at
> > > home during the evening.
> > > >
> > > > Hann støkkði því heim at selinu,
> > > > he - drove - it [the sheep, collectively] - home - to - the
> > shieling
> > > > He drove them back to the shieling,
> > > >
> > > > en ferr at leita hins, er vant var áðr.
> > > > and - went - to - seek - them - who - missing - were - earlier
> > > > and went to look for the ones who were missing earlier.
> > > >
> > > > Hann sér nú stóðhrossin fram á eyrunum
> > > > he - sees - now - the stud horses - forward - on - the gravel
> > banks
> > > > Then he saw the horses ahead on the gravel banks
> > > >
> > > > ok hugsar at hõndla sér hross nõkkurt til reiðar ok þóttisk
> > vita,
> > > > and - considers - to - seize - himself - a horse -
certain/any -
> > for
> > > - service - and - thinking - to know
> > > > and decided to catch one of the horses to use, believing
> > > >
> > > > at hann mundi fljótara yfir bera, ef hann riði heldr en gengi.
> > > > that - he - would - more swiftly - over - to carry - if - he -

> > rides
> > > - rather - than - walks
> > > > that he would make quicker progress if he rode rather than
walked.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ok er hann kom til hrossanna, þá elti hann þau,
> > > > and - when - he - comes - up to - the horses - then - chases -

> > he - them
> > > > So when he reached the horses, he chased them,
> > > >
> > > > ok váru þau nú skjõrr, er aldri váru võn at ganga undan
> > manni,
> > > > and - were - these - now - shy - which - never - were -
> > accustomed -
> > > to - going - away from - people
> > > > but these (horses), which never used to run away from people,
were
> > > now skittish,
> > > >
> > > > nema Freyfaxi einn.
> > > > except - Freyfaxi - alone
> > > > except for Freyfaxi alone.
> > > >
> > > > Hann var svá kyrr sem hann væri grafinn niðr.
> > > > he - was - as - quiet - as if - he - were - rooted - down
> > > > He was as still as if he were rooted to the ground.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Einarr veit, at líðr morgunninn, ok hyggr,
> > > > Einarr - knows - that - passes - the morning - and - considers
> > > > Einar knew that the morning was passing, and decided
> > > >
> > > > at Hrafnkell mundi eigi vita, þótt hann riði hestinum.
> > > > that - Hrafnkell - would - not - know - that - he - rides -
the
> > stallion
> > > > that Hrafnkel would never know that he rode the stallion.
> > > >
> > > > Nú tekr hann hestinn ok slær við beizli,
> > > > now - takes - he - the stallion - and - forms - with - bridle
> > > > So he took the stallion and bridled him,
> > > >
> > > > lætr þófa á bak hestinum undir sik ok ríðr upp hjá
> > Grjótárgili,
> > > > places - saddlepad - on - back - the stallion - under -
himself -
> > > and - rides - up - by - Grjótárgil
> > > > placed a saddlecloth under himself on the back of the
stallion and
> > > rode up by Grjotargil (Rocky River Gorge?),
> > > >
> > > > svá upp til jõkla ok vestr með jõklunum,
> > > > also - up - to - glaciers - and - west - along - the glaciers
> > > > and up to the glaciers and west along the glaciers,
> > > >
> > > > þar sem Jõkulsá fellr undir þeim,
> > > > there - where - Jõkulsá - flows - away from - them
> > > > to where the Jokulsa (Glacier River) flows out from beneath
them,
> > > >
> > > > svá ofan með ánni til Reykjasels.
> > > > also - down - along - the river - to - Reykjasel
> > > > and then down along the river to the Reykja shieling.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > >
> > > > Homepage: HYPERLINK
> >
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> > > >
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