--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Bray <dbray@...> wrote:
> Heilir Stuntie and Konrad!
>
> It is interesting to note that the symbol used for 'ok' is the
same as that used for 'agus' "and" in Irish (<OIr 'acus'). Perhaps
this is a case of Irish influence, especially considering the Irish
were using it long before the Norse had Latin letters?
This is not very likely, in my opinion. Whether in Latin or Runic
letters, the Norse tended to just "spell it like it sounds".
> German and (archaic) English have 'auch' and 'eke', beside 'und'
and 'and' for "and". Also, Irish has 'ach' for "but". Ultimately, it
seems to be a particle of Indo-European antiquity (*-kwe), from
which is derived, in addition to the above, Gothic 'ja-h', Latin '-
que', Mycenaean '-qe' > Greek 'kai' and 'te', Armenian '-k'',
Hittite '-ki', Avestan and Sanskrit 'cha', all meaning "and"
(Mallory and Adams, "Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture", 1996).
Some great references here. I am noticing that most of the citations
feature a vowel after the consonant K/CH/Q and that quite a few of
them are enclitic as well. This tells me something about 'ok'.
> Furthermore, Cleasby points out similar constructions that
strengthen the identity (ie. Lat. 'ne-que' = Goth. 'ne-uh' (PGmc *ne-
hu > ON 'né') = Irish 'na-ch'). According to Cleasby, 'ok' or 'auk'
is derived from a similar compound '*já-uh' 'auh' 'auk' 'ok'.
This is interesting. How does he account for the change to 'o' found
in the spelling 'ok'? Does he include translations or derivations
for the various elements he cites?
" 'Auk' was also in use in ON, as an adverb and conjunction
meaning "besides" "also". I think this derivation is much more
likely than from any verb.
In citing the verbs, I did not mean to imply that either one was the
true origin of 'ok'. They were simply intended as food for thought.
In citing 'auka', however, I did mean to uncover ON 'auk' "besides",
though without implying any connection with 'ok'. I agree that 'ok'
is more likely to have had some such origin rather than a direct
derivation from a verb. How would you account for the 'o' in 'ok'?
Regards,
Konrad.
> Dan
>
> Stuntie wrote:
>
> > 'auk' is the most common runic spelling - but given the fact
that 'o' was
> > dropped so 'ok' was not possible, that is not cast iorn proof
for 'auk'.
> >
> > Cleasby Vigfusson thinks its from a cognate of Gothic jah (with
loss of
> > initial j and k from the 'h' - the phonteic sound looks like an
X but is a
> > guttural 'ch' sound.
> >
> > German and English have 'und' and 'and' - so no help there.
> >
> > Also manuscripts use a shorthand type symbol for and, so once
again no help
> > there...
> >
> > This is quite a hard question.
> >
> > But I think it may be best to look towards the other languages
for possible
> > answers rather than later Old Norse forms, as they have often
been altered
> > during the transitional period and so can be missleading.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Stuntie.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: konrad_oddsson <konrad_oddsson@...>
> > > [mailto:konrad_oddsson@...]
> > > Sent: 18 February 2003 12:46
> > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [norse_course] Ok hvaðan er 'ok' ? - Það er
spurningin - a
> > > short quiz
> > >
> > >
> > > What is the true origin of the most common word in every modern
> > > Scandinavian language? What is the origin of the common
conjuction
> > > 'ok'? - Það er spurningin (That is the question)
> > >
> > > On the Stone at 'Eggjum' (650-800) in Norway, we see that this
word
> > > is spelled 'uk'. The inscriber could have spelled it 'ok', as
O/Ó
> > > was still in the alphabet and is used many times for other
words in
> > > the same inscription. On the other hand, on the Stone at
Glavendrup
> > > (900-925) in Denmark we see that this word is spelled 'auk'.
Which
> > > spelling most accurately represents the true origin of the
word?
> > >
> > > Here are some clues:
> > >
> > > 'Ok' could be derived from the verb 'auka', meaning
to 'increase'.
> > > If this is correct, then the phrase 'Jón ok Páll' (John and
Paul)
> > > would literally translate as 'John increase Paul'.
> > >
> > > 'Ok' could be derived from the verb 'oka', meaning
to 'harness' or
> > > to 'yoke'. The verb is derived from Proto-Norse *yuka. If this
is
> > > correct, then the phrase 'Jón ok Páll' (John and Paul) would
> > > literally translate as 'John yoke Paul'.
> > >
> > > In either case, the meaning is clear. Here is the question
again:
> > > which is the true origin of this most common word in any modern
> > > Scandinavian language? Is it 'uk' or is it 'auk'?
> > >
> > > - Það er spurningin (That is the question). Whoever answers
this
> > > this question wins the Norse grand linguistics prize. Please
post
> > > your answers and any information you can find about this
online.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Konrad.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sumir hafa kvæði...
> > > ...aðrir spakmæli.
> > >
> > > - Keth
> > >
> > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > >
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> > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
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> > >
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> > Sumir hafa kvæði...
> > ...aðrir spakmæli.
> >
> > - Keth
> >
> > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> >
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>
> --
> Daniel Bray
> dbray@...
> School of Studies in Religion A20
> University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
>
> "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and
catastrophe."
> H. G. Wells (1866 - 1946)