Re: Names of Odhinn

Good post DS,

After doing some digging it appears that in Old Icelandic (Zoega) 'Barð' is
a term with a lot of use for objects that share common characteristics while
'Skegg', as many have already stated, is the true word for "Beard".

Some objects "Barð" can be used for are:
-The reinforced/decorated prow of a ship.
-The brim of a hat
-A beard
-A kind of axe

The common characteristics of these objects is that they are
pointing-forward or leading ahead of the object they are attatched to. The
prow of a ship the furthest most forward point of that ship. A beard or the
brim of a hat is furthest forward part of a man. An axe-head would be the
furthest forward point of both the whole axe itself or of a warrior weilding
it in battle.

I now suspect the term "Barð" to actually mean that observed characteristic,
with a possible English equivalent in 'Bow' (as in the Bow of a ship versus
it's Aft, not the weapon that flings arrows). But I may be wrong.

With this information, I don't believe that the term "Barð" for "Beard" is
Latin based, but instead is a Kenning that was used to poetically refer to a
beard and had the added bonus of sounding like a Latin word: 'Barbus'. That
is, unless there happen to be a Latin term related to my observations above.

At the same time, I am now curious what "Longobardi" means. I always thought
it meant "Long-Beards".

-Lazarus

----- Original Message -----
From: "Deep Stream" <DeepStream@...>
To: <norse_course@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: [norse_course] Re: Names of Odhinn


> > Norse was used most about 900 years AFTER
> > Herman Cerusci slaughtered Varius'
> > Legions, so I don't think there's a problem
> > with any Old Norse words with
> > Latin origins. It's not like Snorri introduced
> > Latin to the Scandinavians
> > all by himself.
>
>
> I don't think it's sustainable to argue a
> significant Latin source in Norse: foreign words
> don't wander into a language merely because
> certain speakers know the foreign language - to
> really become part of the home language, the
> foreign words must enjoy *usage*.
>
> And already comparing the German dialects (not to
> mention comparing German to Scandinavian
> languages) one can see that Latin has come into
> German through the Roman occupation: Latin-origin
> words in the "High" German (spoken in areas once
> under Roman occupation) are not represented in
> the "low" German (spoken in areas the Romans
> never occupied).
>
> A good example of this is the High German word
> "Fenster" ("Window" - from Latin Fenestre). The
> Romans brought the occupied Germans the concept
> of a hole in the midst of the wall that could be
> opened and closed, as opposed to a permanent hole
> at the top of buildings as they had originally
> built. Thus the term "Fenster" came into the
> German language through reference to this
> innovation. In northern Germany, however, the
> term for window has always been "Windauge"
> (wind-eye or wind-hole) because the occupation
> never brought the Latin term into use.
>
> A good example of this in German/Scandinavian
> comparison is the German word "Tisch" (Table -
> from Latin "Diskus"). The Romans brought the
> concept of a round table at which the food could
> be arranged equidistan from all those seated,
> rather than the rectangular table commonly used.
> So the word came into the German language through
> reference to this innovation. In Scandinavia,
> however, the term for table has allways been
> related to the term "Bord" (Board), because Roman
> occupation never brought the Latin term into use.
>
> "Learned" men in both northern Germany and
> Scandinavia certain all knew the Latin terms for
> a round table and a window; however, they were
> not able to introduce them to their native
> languages.
>
> So, to argue that the Latin term for "Beard"
> somehow became used in Norse, it would be
> necessary to identify (a) intensive exposure to a
> latin or romance language such as occupation and
> (b) a significant difference (ie a special kind
> of beard that the latin or romance speakers made
> popular among the Norse) that would have been
> worth making reference to.
>
> The only long-shot for this that occurs to me is
> that the Norse settling Normandy used the romance
> term to refer to a specific kind of beard common
> to the natives, and that this term was taken over
> before the Normans dropped Norse usage
> completely. However, this is so unlikely it's not
> worth pursuing.
>
> To argue that both languages carried a similar
> term for "beard" from the original IndoEuropean,
> it would be necessary to demonstrate that the
> term were used in other circumstances in Norse.
> As the word used in other circumstances is
> "skegg", it is clear that Norse and Latin
> developed their respective words for "beard" from
> different sources (possibly still both
> IndoEuropean: the Germanic and Latin words for
> "knowledge", for instance, both come from
> IndoEuropean - but from completely different
> IndoEuropean source words. The IndoEuropean used
> two different terms for types of "knowing" they
> perceived to be different, one being handed down
> to the Germanic and one to the romance
> languages).
>
>
>
> =====
> Kindest Regards,
> - DeepStream
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