Re: Portuguese, Spanish bode "buck"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:

>
> A Celtic origin would be phonetically implied by a comparison with
> Bavarian butz, butzel 'person or animal charatcterized by a short and
> thick form' < Germanic *butti-z, *buttila-z < PIE *bhud-n'i-s,
> *bhud-n'i-lo-s: PIE *bhud-n'i-s > Celtic *buddi-s >
> Proto-Ibero-Romance *bodde
>
> > Besides of phonetically convoluted (I'm Sean's opposite with regard to this),
>
> *Bhr.: I hope You are able to explain how Your "link to NEC
> *bHe:mtts^y 'deer, mountain goat' (NCED 258)" can be less "convoluted"
>

In this word, I guess the Proto-NEC lateral affricate would correspond to a dental stop in the Basque (*piti-) and Romance (bode) forms. In fact, those consonants are somewhat similar to PIE palato-velars in which they're reflected as lateral fricatives in some languages and velar stops in others, as discovered by Trubetzkoy in the '30s.

The NEC word refers to the *wild* animal before domestication, as its adduced Altaic cognates (EDAL 1667): Turkic *bugu(ra) 'male deer; camel stallion', Mongolian *bojir 'male elk', Tungusic *pegu(le)-/*pogu(le)- 'young of elk, elk'. Also besides Indo-Iranian and Armenian *bug´-, Germanic and Celtic *bukko-, there're also Italic becco 'male goat' and Basque behi 'cow'. So possibly these words are remnants of the European Neolithic package.

> > semantically is misfit. In fact Low German butt (> German Butt, Butte, Bütte) from Middle Low German/Middle Dutch bot[te], but[te], applies to flat fishes such as 'perch' (OHG agabu:z, High German Butz(li)).
>
> *Bhr.: You have picked up German Butzen 'bit, impurity, dross; core',
> compared by Kluge (-Krause-Götze, 11th ed., 1934, pp. 114 and 115)
> with Butt(e) 'brill', and demonstrated (or stated) that it's another
> word / has nothing to do with Butze 4 'Lämmchen' (Grimm II 591), which
> is the only one I was meaning (wouldn't You be so deeply persuaded I'm
> a priori wrong, You would probably have made an extra effort to check
> out between German homophones)
>

I'm not "deeply presuaded" of anything, but my Kluge's is 23th edition the last is 24th), and yout Butze isn't related to Low German butt but likely to Romance bode.

> > Kluge relates this word to Middle Low German but, Middle Dutch bot 'blunt, clumsy, akward',
>
> *Bhr.: all right just for Butze 2c 'Propf' (Grimm II 590)
>

I haven't got Grimm's dictionary, but the German word is spelled as Pfropf.

> > cfr. Gothic bauths 'deaf, dumb; tasteless',
>
> *Bhr.: This is Feist's proposal (p. 86), obviously with a different
> root enlargement (Goth. baud- < Germanic *bauda- < PIE *bhoudho- or
> *bhout'o- is different from Low German but < Germanic *butta- < PIE
> *bhud-n'o-, although I know this will re-open a discussion about
> Kluge's Law)
>

I won't discuss that, but thank you for the references anyway.

> > borrowed into Spanish boto/a 'blunt; clumsy, akward'.
>
> *Bhr.: according to Corominas - Pascual (1980) I 644, where Feist's
> comparisons are added (only Germanic *butta-, not *bauda-, can explain
> Ibero-Romance boto)
>

OK.

> > The Germanic word has cognates in Sanskrit badhirá- and Celtic
> > *bodaro- 'deaf' (Old Irish bodar, Middle Welsh byddar, Cornish bodhar,
> > Breton bouzar).
>
> *Bhr.: either is *bodaro- connected with badhirá- (both from PIE
> *bhodhHro-, Matasovic' 69) or it's rather *budaro- (Pedersen I 111,
> 363, Pokorny 112) and then from PIE *bhudhHro-(Walde - Pokorny II 190)
>

I think the Gothic form would support the latter, although I'm afraid Pokorny conflated two homonymous roots here.