From: dgkilday57
Message: 70559
Date: 2012-12-11
>While <ru:fus> is obviously borrowed from P-Italic (not only into Latin but into Etruscan, where we find Raufe, Rufe, Rafe as regional variants of the cognomen Ru:fus), <ro:bus> and <ro:bi:go:> are not. The -b- cannot come from any known P-Italic language, and we must be dealing with a Q-Italic dialect closer to Latin than to Faliscan (which has <efiles> 'aediles' and the like). The problem with Bhr.'s designation of "Latial" or non-Roman Latin is that <Ro:ma> itself probably comes from this dialect. It evidently lowered *u: (or the diphthong predating it) to *o: before labials. The city was founded at the major ford of the Tiber, and fords occur where rivers are broad, so we can understand *Ru:ma 'Broad Space' formed like <spu:ma> with the root of <ru:s>. Likewise <abdo:men> (var. <abdu:men> cited by Charisius), formed like <nu:men>, <lu:men>, from *deu- 'to place': reg. Roman Latin <abdu:men> 'a putting away, place to put away' (i.e. food; cf. Johnny Depp's remark that ultra-skinny girlfriend Kate Moss did eat, and in fact "could really put it away"). Provisionally, perhaps we could label this dialect "Tiberian".
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
> >
> > For instance (Oscan-Umbrian loanwords)?
> >
> > 2012/12/8, stlatos <sean@>:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> A doublet like <bortitz>/<portitz> from Lat. <fortis> in this view
> > >> requires no intermediate language, merely an earlier and later stage of
> > >> borrowing the same word.
> > >>
> > > I don't think 2 stages of borrowing are needed. If Bq. had no f, then
> > > either f > p or f > v ( > b later) would be equally good substitutions.
> > > This is sim. to how L. borrowed Osc-U. words with -v- as either -b- or -f-
> > > (before w > v in L.).
> > >
> [reply to Bhr.'s top-posting]
>
> Sihler mentioned ro:bus : ru:fus, *londH- > lumbi: = loins (and some related words). He compared it to opt. OE borrowings of v (vannus > fann, v- > berbena, etc.). Either shows the reality of what I proposed.
>