Re: PIE suffix =t in food?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:

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> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@ wrote:
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> > > > > On the other hand, beside <olut> Jouppe cites Fi. <ohra> 'barley', Middle Proto-Finnic *os^tra- referred to Balt. *as^tra- < PIE *h2ak^- 'sharp'; Fi. <ohdake> 'thistle', MPF *os^ta-kkes^, root referred to Balt. *a(k)s^ta-; and Fi. <onki> 'fishhook' referred to Gmc. *angan-.
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> > > > > If these are IE loanwords, they could equally well be from North Venetic with retained */o/, namely <ohra>, MPF *os^tra- from Ven. *hozd- cognate with Lat. <hordeum>; <ohda-ke>, MPF root *os^ta- from Ven. *ozd- 'branch' (cf. Grk. <o'zos>, HG <Ast>, etc.); and <onki> from Ven. *onk- 'crooked' (cf. Lat. <uncus>).
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> > > > The usual explanation here has been to date these loans as sufficiently old that they would precede *o > *a in Baltic/Germanic, an approach which has been used for several other odd IE > F substitution patterns as well.
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> > > That would seem to rule out PIE *h2ak^- in these words.
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> > On re-checking some of Koivulehto's writing he has actually suggested an initial phonetic develoment into an open labial vowel *o, *a > *å and that (some of) these loans would be later than this development & erlier than *å > *a. Which seems to require awfully close timing, but recalling another *o-loan yet: at least *okti "bear" from *h2rtk´os (exact loangiver not identified AFAIK) appears to require *o being derivable even from previous IE *a anyway; and must also be assigned to a layer distinct from the one with *H- > *k-.
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Not so, since the existence of Khowar òhts 'bear' (which never had a- and didn't get ts < Cy) makes it likely that Finnish otso \ ohto (etc.) was borrowed from an Indo-Iranian l. like Kh, possibly even proto-Kh. Finnish borrowings from Indo-Iranian are known, and the existence (even in ancient sources) of many odd (in comp. to most modern) Indo-Iranian l. in NE Europe increases this likelihood.

> Anatolian and Tocharian are ruled out, but Venetic would work, with vocalization of PIE syllabic */r./ to *-or- as in Latin. The ending of *okti recalls the protoform of Lat. <ursus>, whose vocalism indicates an early borrowing from Sabine,

No.

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and whose assibilation points to the adj. in *-jo-, not the noun,


No.

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i.e. (formally) PIE *h2r.tk^jos 'bearish one' > Italic *orktjos > Sab. *or(c)s(o)s, possibly North Ven. *orktis > MPF *okti-. No previous */a/ is required in 'bear' by this route.

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