Re: What color is the Rother?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:

>
> According to genealogists, the Yorkie Rutherford is from a branch of the family that settled on the English side. But I wouldn't bet money on that. Regarding "red" --we do have English ruddy, why wouldn't that work?

Getting the second -r- in is problematic.

> ________________________________
> From: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] What color is the Rother?
>
> --- In mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm no expert on British topos but Rutherford is /r@...@rd/ with a /dh/, I was assuming that Rother was /ra:D(r)/. Can someone confirm the pronunciation? Rutherford, as a surname, does have variants such as "Rudderford", "Redford", etc. I'm following the traditional explanation that it means "red ford"
> >
> /-Dr-/ would be regular here, as in <gather> from OE <gad(e)rian>.

Cameron also cites the Etherow (Ederhou 1226, Edderowe 1290, Edrou 1300, Ederow 1386, Tedder ca. 1600, Etherow 1767). Presumably *"that Edder" > "the Tedder", but this does not explain the apocope.

> > ________________________________
> > From: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@>
> > To: mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 5:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [tied] What color is the Rother?
> >
> > I was referring to the discussion about the Wye. Sorry for haven't
> > pointed it explicitly out. But please explain me the treatment of <th>
> > from */dh/; do You mean there's the same relationship with red as
> > between Lat. ruber and rutilus? Thank You in advance,
>
> Either Celtic or Belgic should give *d from *dH, and Eng. -Dr- from earlier -dr- is regular as in <gather>.
>
> > 2012/10/10, Rick McCallister <mailto:gabaroo6958%40yahoo.com>:
> > > You're stumping me, Dude. Scots and N. English are very well attested and
> > > that's where *rother "red" would most likely come from, e.g. SE Scots topo
> > > Rutherford --although some claim that it's from Flemish immigrants who
> > > settled there. Evidently there is a very similar topo in Flanders, at least
> > > according to the genealogists who studied my g-g-gmother's family

A Belgic place-name in Flanders is reasonable, though it is hardly necessary to invoke 12th-13th c. Flemings to bring it to Scotland. Insular Celtic *daru- 'oak' is a stumper unless we invoke an Insular Belgic substrate, with *daru- regular from PIE *doru-.

> All I have available is Hanks' dictionary of surnames, and he says the SE Scots Rutherford is probably based on a British river-name of unknown etymology, while the Yorkshire Rutherford is from OE 'cattle-ford' (cf. HG <Rind>). Under Rotherham Hanks accepts Ekwall's 'chief river' explanation, but since he rejects it for Scots Rutherford, its river must be much smaller. In my view, both river-names could be Belgic for 'red'.

The Derbyshire Amber could be a parallel formation (Ambra, Ambre late 12th c., Amber ca. 1235, Omber ca. 1269, Hamber 1323, Ambur 1448). Ekwall derived it from a hypothetical British *ambro- 'water' (cf. Skt. <a'mbhas-> 'water', Lat. <imber> 'rain', etc. Cameron points out "no such word is known to have existed in Celtic" and Matasovic' seems to agree. Yet we do have a Gallo-Latin(?) hapax <ambis> 'river' and a Britto-Latin(?) place-name Amboglanna 'River-Bank' vel sim. Nevertheless we may well be dealing with a Belgic stem *ambra- 'water, river' parallel to *rudra- 'red'.

DGK