Re: What color is the Rother?

--- In mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
>
> I'm no expert on British topos but Rutherford is /r@...@rd/ with a /dh/, I was assuming that Rother was /ra:D(r)/. Can someone confirm the pronunciation? Rutherford, as a surname, does have variants such as "Rudderford", "Redford", etc. I'm following the traditional explanation that it means "red ford"
>
/-Dr-/ would be regular here, as in <gather> from OE <gad(e)rian>.
> ________________________________
> From: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...>
> To: mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 5:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] What color is the Rother?
>
> I was referring to the discussion about the Wye. Sorry for haven't
> pointed it explicitly out. But please explain me the treatment of <th>
> from */dh/; do You mean there's the same relationship with red as
> between Lat. ruber and rutilus? Thank You in advance,

Either Celtic or Belgic should give *d from *dH, and Eng. -Dr- from earlier -dr- is regular as in <gather>.

> 2012/10/10, Rick McCallister <mailto:gabaroo6958%40yahoo.com>:
> > You're stumping me, Dude. Scots and N. English are very well attested and
> > that's where *rother "red" would most likely come from, e.g. SE Scots topo
> > Rutherford --although some claim that it's from Flemish immigrants who
> > settled there. Evidently there is a very similar topo in Flanders, at least
> > according to the genealogists who studied my g-g-gmother's family

All I have available is Hanks' dictionary of surnames, and he says the SE Scots Rutherford is probably based on a British river-name of unknown etymology, while the Yorkshire Rutherford is from OE 'cattle-ford' (cf. HG <Rind>). Under Rotherham Hanks accepts Ekwall's 'chief river' explanation, but since he rejects it for Scots Rutherford, its river must be much smaller. In my view, both river-names could be Belgic for 'red'.

> > ________________________________
> > From: Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <mailto:bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy%40gmail.com>
> > To: mailto:cybalist%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: [tied] What color is the Rother?
> >
> > What's more probable - the survival in Celtic of a good PIE formation or
> > postulating a non attested language?

We already know where your gross-out version of Super Mario Alinei's immobilist doctrine leads: the invention of phantom /p/-retaining Celts for Porcobera, Pli:nius, porca, etc., and of ludicrous pseudologies for places like Cremona.

> > 2012/10/10 dgkilday57 <mailto:dgkilday57%40yahoo.com>
> >
> >>
> >>The river Rother of Derbyshire (Roder, -ir, -yr, -ur 13th cent., Rudde
> >> 1330, Rodelle 1330, Rother 1577) is explained by Ekwall (English
> >> River-Names 348) as 'chief river', British *dubro- 'water' with intensive
> >> *ro- from *pro-. Cameron (Place-Names of Derbyshire 15) agrees with this
> >> analysis but suggests 'great river' as a better translation.
> >>
> >>I have never been there, but maps suggest that the Rother is not a
> >> particularly great river, nor the chief river of Derbyshire. Also, the
> >> contraction of the name required is rather violent, since Dubris is still
> >> Dover. I wonder whether the meaning of Rother is rather 'red', a rhotic
> >> extension of zero-grade *h1rudH- as in Greek and Latin (or with an
> >> intervening laryngeal in Sanskrit).
> >>
> >>I cannot find such a Celtic formation in Matasovic', but this name need not
> >> be Celtic. In disagreeing with Ekwall on the Wye, Jackson considered a
> >> Celtic etymology unlikely and pointed out that there were people in
> >> Britain before the Celts.
> >>
> >>But if the Rother is green, it will embarrass my explanation.

The variants from 1330 appear to be derived from 'ruddy', ME <rudie> etc., OE <rudig>, rather than forms of the Roder type, suggesting the pre-industrial river was indeed red.

DGK