Re: Cremona (was: Ligurian Barga and */p/; was: Ligurian)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:

>
> 2012/6/1, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > What does involve the etymology of Cremo:na is that 'wild garlic' is
> > reconstructed as an /u/-stem *kremh{x}u-, that there is a town Crema about
> > halfway between Cremona and Milan (medieval Crema, I do not have an ancient
> > reference), and that the ancient Cremo:nis Jugum 'Yoke of Cremo' referred to
> > the Graian Alps. I think we are dealing with pre-Celtic nouns corradical
> > with Greek <krema'nnu:mi> 'I hang up, allow to hang down, etc.'. Glaciated
> > montane areas contain "hanging valleys" through which tributary glaciers
> > moved.
> >
> > Instead of forcing fanciful Celtic etymologies on Derto:na, Cremo:na,
> > Vero:na, and the like, I would simply recognize that the pre-Gaulish IE
> > languages of Cisalpine Gaul, namely Ligurian, Rhaetic, and Venetic, retained
> > inherited */o:/ rather than shifting it to */a:/.
> >
> >
> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
> It's self-evident that both Celtic *krem- (ablauting with kram-)
> 'garlic, onion etc.' (only crim is properly -u-stem) and *krem-
> 'strong' (whence maybe 'rock') are always competing etymologies. Other
> PIE roots, like kremannymi's *k'remh2- or cremo's *k(')remH- can of
> course be taken into consideration as well. All in all, I still find
> no difficulty in identifying Cremona with garlic or onions because
> this would fit its territory.

I can accept 'garlic' or 'onion' as the base of Crema and Cremo:na, but I find the 'river' part of the forced Celtic etymology implausible. In what sense was the Po the 'Garlic River', and why would such a name only be found applied to a town?

And I see no connection with the Graian Alps, where 'Yoke of the Hanger' (a mythical mountain-raiser?) makes more sense.

> As for Derto:na, my own etymology *Dher-to-pon-ah2 'slowly river'
> would refer to the moor of the Scrivia river in the plain between
> Arquata and Tortona.

So why was the RIVER not called that?

> Vero:na < *Wei-ro-pon-ah2 'curved river' lies exactly on the great
> curve of the Adige.

So why was the RIVER not called that?

> Inherited *-o:na: did shift to *-a:na: in non-praedial
> -ana-place-names (e.g. Brutana)

Good. Since we know there was an inherited *-o:na: (becoming Gaulish *-a:na:), there is no problem assigning o:na:-names to the pre-Gaulish IE languages.

DGK