Re: Ligurian

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:

>
> 2. Bormani, just like Bormio, can better proceed from *bhor-mo- (*bher- 'boil')
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" dgkilday57@ wrote:
> >
> > There is no basis for naming hot springs *bHor-mo-, and plenty for
> > naming them *gWHor-mo-. Kretschmer's paper explains how Gaulish *borw-
> > (from *bHorw-) was substituted for Ligurian *borm-, since no stem of
> > similar sense occurred in Gaulish.
>

IMHO both Ligurian *bor-m- and Gaulish *bor-w- stem from the same root but with differents suffixes. This is parallel to Gaulish curmi 'beer' (and similar forms in Insular Celtic) < *kor-m- vs. Latin cerve:s(i)a, cer(e)visia, cervi:sa, a loanword from an apophonic variant *ker-w- corresponding to native cremor 'broth, pap'.

> > The variant <Bormitomago> (abl., It. Ant.) very likely shows the
> > original Ligurian stem of the place-name, with Gaul. <magos> 'field'
> > appended, and the same typical Gaul. folk-etymological replacement of
> > *Borm- with *Borw- in the more common <Borb->.
>

This is no folk-etymology but a straightforward translation (see above).

> > The Germanic forms Latinized
> > as <Warmatia>, <Wormacia>, <G(u)ormetia>, etc. indicate that the Germans
> > translated the Lig. stem as 'warm', rather than folk-etymologizing it.
>

Actually, the forms with /o/ would be reflexes of an unattested Gaulish form *wor-m- regularly deriving from Celtic *gWer-m- < "PIE" *gWher-m-.

While in traditional model, *bher-w- and *gWher- are different "PIE" roots, in my own model they would derive from a single paleo-IE root in two different paleo-dialects. And probably there's still a third output *k(W)er- reflected in Celtic *kWar-jo- 'cauldron' and the forementioned 'beer' words.

> (Rather, I think You may have had no occasion of having a glance to the
> 1200 pages of a recent book of mine - alas in local academic language - on
> Bormio / Worms and other ca. 200 Pre-Roman place-names in Valtellina (or
> Valtline, as they prefer to write) hosted by invitation in the Monograph
> Series of I.D.E.V.V. (Institute for Dialectology and Ethnogaphy of
> Valtellina and Valchiavenna). I can send You privately a copy of its 2009
> thir edition if You want - although I heavily suspect that You'd perceive
> it as "baloney" ;-)...
>

Is this American slang? Wikipedia says it's the name of an American sausage similar to Italian mortadella, although without visible pieces of lard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_sausage

> In that case You should label as such the etymology
> of Wien through Slavonic from PIE *Widhh1-u-n-yah2 instead of Windo-bo:na:
> < PIE *Wi-n-d-o-bhou[h2]-nah2,
>

I'm affraid -bona: 'town' is exclusively Gaulish, and thus certainly not Celtic and much less IE. IMHO this is a Vasco-Caucasian loanword related to Basque -gue 'place (toponymic suffix) and (g)une 'interval; stretch', for which Bengtson proposed a link to NEC *G\G\win>\V 'village; house' (>\ is X-SAMPA for the epiglottal stop).

> Since You have invoked the linguistic giant Kretschmer, one should
> evaluate his theory for what it is: the reconstruction of a lost
> Indo-European language on the basis of - for what is relevant here - just a
> couple of names, viz. Aquae Bormiae* and debelis. His objection to Gaulish
> *bormo- is too optimistic in its negativity, because it treats a
> Restsprache as a Groszcorpussprache. The only possible Gaulish attestation
> of *bormo- could be the disputed form Bormo-: they cannot be used as
> evidence, but the same must be stated for Bormo- as evidence for an alleged
> Ligurian outcome of *Gwhor-mo-! This is nevertheless possible, but then You
> have 200 (not just two!) place-names, between the Alps and Liguria, that
> clearly testify to the completely regular development in situ from PIE
> to Continental Celtic in Cisalpine Gaul.
>

The last statement reflects one of the main postulates (I'd rather say apriorism) of the Paleolithic Continuity Theory which negates the existence of prehistoric language replacement processes and thus toponymic stratification.

> Only very rare
> not-still-completely-p-Celtic spots can be detected here and there (a
> famous instance is Palaeoligurian Porcobera; another one can be Piario
> [Bergamo] < Orobic *pla:rios = Celtic *La:rios 'lake Como', Welsh llawr).
>

The Proto-Celtic reconstruction is actually *Fla:ro- 'floor', with an initial voiceless labial fricative. Although this consonant (represented as /f/ by some specialists, e.g. Matasovic) was lost in most historical languages, at least before /l/ it was retained by some varieties such as Gallaecian (i.e. western Hispano-Celtic), as in e.g. Bleitasama vs. Celtiberian Leitasama.

But this has nothing to do with P-Celtic, whose /p/ is secondary from Proto-Celtic *kW in the native lexicon (as it can also appear in late foreign loanwords).

> I leave unreplied Your amusing humour about de Bernardo Stempel's - for
> me still convincing - etymology of Ingauni; if You have stronger
> counterarguments, please state them explicitly, this is the right place to
> do it. Same for the recommended "full day-killer treatment", where I'll
> escape the trap of joking about those who kill a day, since I'm perfeclty
> aware that Kilday is in the majority of cases an Anglicization of Gaelic
> Mac Giolla Deághaidh 'Son of the Servant of Goodwin' (deagh- 'good' + ádh
> 'luck, fate'), itself a highly intriguing etymological question, isn't it?
>

Goidelic *makk- 'son' has a geminate velar not reflected in its P-Celtic cognate *map-, thus making impossible to reconstruct a common Proto-Celtic form. IMHO this is a Vasco-Caucasian substrate loanword related to NEC *mVXXwA 'fiancé, son-in-law' and Sino-Tibetan *ma:k 'son-in-law'. Of course, this etymology has to be understood in the context of a Neolithic matriarcal society.