Re: Greek psephas/knephas/dnophos/zophos: linked?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > That's nice. Now, if you want the rest of us to accept that
> > pre-Greek was IE, you should present his arguments here.
> >
> > > Unlike these authors, I don't think "Pre-Greek" was a single
> > > language, but rather a label under which lie several substrates,
> > > both IE and non-IE.
> >
> > Aha. And what was your point in mentioning Georgiev's Pelasgian
> > then?
> You explicitly said 'pséphas must be a "Pelasgian" (a variety of
> Thracian) loanword'. Now it suddenly doesn't matter? Are you even
> trying?
> >
> What I meant is "Pre-Greek" isn't a single but several substrate
> layers, representing the indigenous language spoken in the area
> before kurganization, one of which is precisely Thraco-Pelasgian.

You didn't answer the question. How is Georgiev's Pelasgian relevant to pséphas etc?

> Greek zéphuros 'west wind' and zóphos 'darkness' represent a
> root *dJepH- ~ *dJopH- which can be readily linked to Altaic *dZipHu
> 'evening, darkness' (a "satem" form in his full right).

Aha, new proposal. I can agree to your Old Greek(?) *dJepH- ~ *dJopH- since I think the Greek double reflex z-/Ø- of PIE *y- is caused by an original PIE allophone set *d3-/*y- (cf. Finland Swedish vs. Swedish). Don't forget that a 'link', when implying borrowing in two languages A and B means either 1. A -> B, 2. B -> A or C -> A, B.

> But IMHO Greek
> ps- in pséphas, pséphos 'dark' must derive from a *labialized*
> sibilant *ts^W which would be reflected as Etruscan f- in *favi-
> (cfr. Latin favissa 'crypt' vel sim) and *k´s- in Indo-Iranian
> *k´sep- 'night'.

I can't follow your 'must'. I assume, since you don't state your reason, that you think assibilation in a nasalised palatalized cluster is impossible. But as I showed you it happened in Polish.

> The root can be analyzed as compound whose first member would be
> cognate to NWC *(p@-)dz^W@ 'dusk, evening'. On the other hand, Greek
> knéphas 'dark, dnóphos, gnóphos 'darkness' would be cognate to the
> IE word for 'night' *nekW-t-, including reduction of the labiovelar.

And cluster reduction *dhn- -> *n- as I proposed. But see above.

Or permaps from zero grade of *tem- "darkness"
*tm- -> *dhm- (whence full grade *dhem- "darkness") -> *dhn- -> *n-
cf.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/47566

> This root would be ultimately related to NEC *h\nitts^wV 'night,
> evening'.

Related how?


Torsten