Re: The reason for Caesar's obtaining the two Gauls as province

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Ernout-Meillet:
> > > 'callis, -is c.(le genre est flottant comme pour beaucoup de noms
> > > en -is): piste de troupeau, sentier tracé par les animaux;
> > > différent à l'origine de se:mita, cf.
> > > Vg., Ae. 9,383, rara per occultos lucebat semita calles;
> > > Serv. Ae. 4,405; Isid., Diff.1,539; Orig. 15,16,10.
> > > Puis toute espèce de sentier ou de route. -
> > > Ancien, technique. M.L.1520.
> > > Faussement rapproché de callum, callus "ā callō pedum" par les
> > > anciens.
> > > Dérivé: callitānus (inscr.).
> > > Il est vain de rapprocher
> > > irl. caill "forêt",
> > > lit. ke~lias "chemin", ´
> > > serbe klánac "défilé",
> > > trop éloignés, les uns par la forme, les autres par le sens.'
> >
> > I see no reason to discard the connection between <callis> and
> > <callum>, even if "les anciens" were off the mark in their details.
> > A path has a hard surface from the trampling of humans and cattle,
> > and a blister also has a hard surface.
>
> As I said.
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/68615

You said 'worn'. I am arguing for 'surface-hardened' which is a different matter.

> > > Pokorny:
> > > 'kalni- "enger Durchgang, enger Pfad"?
> > > Lat. callis "Bergpfad, Waldweg, Gebirgstrift';
> > > bulgar. klánik "Raum zwischen Herd und Wand",
> > > serb. klánac, Gen. klánca "Engpaß",
> > > sloven. klánəc "Hohlweg, Gebirgsweg, Rinnsal eines Baches,
> > > Dorfgasse",
> > > čech. klanec "Bergsattel, Paß".
> > > WP. I 356 f., WH. I 140 f.'
> >
> > Latin <callis> goes better under Pokorny's *kal-(1) 'hart',
> > IEW 523-4. I suspect that the original root was verbal, probably
> > *keh2l- 'to harden the surface of'. The original meaning is well
> > preserved in Slavic, e.g. Czech <kaliti> 'to temper, case-harden'.
> > Russian <kalitI> 'to heat, roast' suggests an intermediate Old Russ.
> > sense 'to toast, harden the surface of (a piece of bread)'.
>
> Semantically similar to the 'sharp' root.
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62531

This is a 55-gallon drum of worms. It is not possible to respond to such an enormous agglomeration of material in one post.

> BTW enjoy:
> UEW:
> 'kalke 1 'hart' FW [Finno-Volgaic]
> Finn. kalki (Gen. kaljen)
> 1. 'strävt, hårt föremål; rauher, harter Gegenstand',
> 2. 'vanlottad person, vanlottad, olycklig; stiefmütterlich behandelte Person, stiefmütterlich behandelt, unglücklich',
> (SKES dial.) kalkea, kalkkea 'suuri, järeä; pirteä, reipas; kova, kuuluva (ääni); groß, grob; munter, frisch; hart, hörbar (Laut)';
> est. (dial.) kalk (Gen. kalgi) 'ein zerlumptes, schlecht gekleidetes Kind',
> (SKES) kalk (Gen. kalgi), kalg (Gen. kalje, kale) 'kova, kylmäkiskoinen; liian kova, hauras (rauta); hart, kalt, kühl, zu hart, zerbrechlich, brüchig (Eisen)' |
> mord. (Paas. : MSFOu. 22:87, 109) E kalgodo, kalgudo, M kalguda 'hart'.
>
> Mord. do und da sind Ableitungssuffixe. Anderson, Stud. 289; SKES.'
>
> Note the variant gen. kale

Fronting of a dorsal before a front vowel is a common occurrence. All that appears to have happened here is something like *kalken > *kalgen > *kalje(n) > <kale> in some dialect. That it resembles Lat. <callis> is mere coincidence.

> > Lat. <callum> and <callis> in this view continue zero-grade
> > formations *k&2l-no'-, *k&2l-ni'-. From the same stem are Welsh
> > <caill>, Breton <kell> 'testicle' (cf. English slang <rocks>).
> > Gaulish *caljo-, *calja:wo- 'stone' vel sim. are reflected in French
> > <chaille> 'concretion, flint' and <caillou> 'pebble' (from a
> > non-/ka/-fronting dialect).
>
> UEW:
> 'kaľkkз 'Ei; Hoden' FP
> ??[Finn. (SKES) kalkku (Pl. kalkut) 'mulkku, kives; Hoden';
> kar. (Gen.: Suomi 1881:88) kalkku (Pl. kalkut)] |
> ?? syrj. S P koľk, PO kuľk 'Ei (S P PO); Hoden (P)'.
>
> Finn. u ist ein Substantivsuffix.
>
> Die Zusammenstellung ist nur dann akzeptabel, wenn das syrj. auslautende k die Fortsetzung von *kk in *ľkk ist. Möglicherweise gehört das syrj. Wort mit wotj. S Uf. keľan und syrj. Lu. P keľ 'Hoden' zusammen.
>
> Lytkin (VokPerm. 46) und ESK stellen wotj. B kөľөk 'яйцo' hierher. Dieser Beleg ist aus anderen Quellen nicht bekannt; möglicherweise gehört er zu wotj. keľan und syrj. keľ 'Hoden'.'
>
> > Matasovic', following Joseph, puts Proto-Celtic *kaleto- 'hard' (Old
> > Irish <calath>, We. <caled>) with PIE *k^elh{x}- 'to freeze'
> > (Avestan <sar@...> 'cold', Lithuanian <s^a'lti> 'to be cold,
> > freeze'. I think however that Pokorny was correct to place *kaleto-
> > under *kal- 'hard'. It can represent a secondary participle built
> > to the zero-grade stem of *keh2l-, namely *k&2l-eto-.
> >
> > > The geographical distribution points to an original Venetic word.
> > Suetonius' 'silvae callesque' seems to point to some connection with
> > "forest", pace Ernout-Meillet.
> >
> > Modern Venetian has <cale>, the expected reflex of Lat. <callem>. I
> > see no good reason to regard <callis> as other than inherited.
>
> How do you explain the Finno-Volgaic forms?

What needs explaining? The Uralic forms involve something like *kalk(k)- with two dorsals. PIE *keh2l- has no second dorsal. These are two separate roots in different groups.

> The reason I see for thinking this word is local is sociological. The calles were in the beginning the roads leading from Aquileia, later any mountain path, or just path in general.

That sounds like an etymological novel, not comparative linguistics.

DGK