From: Torsten
Message: 68727
Date: 2012-03-03
>Thanks, I just ordered it from the library.
> (...) Indic *bid.d.a-, *bed.d.a- 'defective', Turner 9238, exactly
> from *big'-do- and *boig'-do-, the protoforms of Germanic *pik- and
> *paik-
> (Ralph Lilley TURNER, A Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan
> Languages, London â" New York â" Toronto, Oxford University Press,
> 1966)
> 2012/3/2, Torsten <tgpedersen@...>:That's what I mean.
> > However, Kuhn seems to assume that the NWB loans in Germanic are
> > post-Grimm; if they were pre-Grimm they would have been loaned in
> > the form you cite for 'Indic'. Another indication of this may be
> > the fact that the NWB words in p- identified by Kuhn often have
> > variants in b-; a similar phenomenon appears in Jutland
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30336
> I can't understand Your sentence "if they were pre-Grimm they would
> have been loaned in the form you cite for 'Indic'":
> 1) if You mean "if *pik-/*paik- were pre-Grimm they would have
> been loaned [from an IE language into Germanic] in the form *big'-
> and *boig'- [which, by the way, aren't exactly identical to the
> Indic forms]" and they they would have become Germanic *pik-/*paik-,
> this is precisely what I meant as well
> (but in this case the very hypothesis of a loan in completelyPokorny has neither *big'- nor *boig'-. I wonder how late those Indiic words are.
> unnecessary);
> 2) if You mean "if *pik-/*paik- were pre-Grimm they would haveThat's not what I meant.
> been loaned [from NWB into Germanic] as such [*pik-/*paik-] and then
> they would have become *b- [again, not exactly the Indic forms,
> which have -e- and retroflex -d.-]", this would be totally absurd
> (there's no room in Grimm's or Verner's laws for word-initial */p/
> to become /b/).
> Variants in (word-initial) /b/ confirm that Kuhn's /p/ is fromYes, and it also confirms the existence of a non-Grimm-shifted language on the present Germanic territory, not necessarily a close relative of Germanic, since both p- and b- variant may have been borrowed.
> PIE */b/, for the same reason