Re: Venetic [Was: The reason for Caesar's obtaining the two Gauls as

From: Torsten
Message: 68680
Date: 2012-03-01

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
>
> 2012/3/1, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>:
> > Can you clear up the relationship between Venetic (the ancient language of
> > the N. Adriatic), the language of the Veneti farther north in Central Europe
> > and NordWestBlock.
> > What substrate of ancient Venetic can be found in modern Venetian,
> > Slovenian, etc.?
>
> IMHO all ancient Veneti and Venetes were IE tribes with the same
> name and no more. Of course they had some lexicon in common, but no
> special relationships.

Why the common name then?

> It would be different in the case on NW-Block, but unfortunately
> no NWB-etymology is better than traditionally hereditary IE
> etymologies of Germanic words, so everything remains just a
> possibility.

That statement makes me fear that you haven't understood the criteria by which Kuhn identified his NWB words.

They were

1) initial p-, since if Germanic, it would have to be from PIE *b- and those words are very rare, and if Celtic, they (because of the Grimm-shift) would have to be p-Celtic with a corrsponding PIE root in *kW-; if none such exists, the word must be from a third language.

2) root structure *T1VT2- where T1 and T2 are unvoiced stops, since they, if Germanic, because of the Grimm-shift would have to be from PIE *D1VD2-, where D1 and D2 are unvoiced stops, but that type of structure violates a PIE root structure constraint, thus they are not Germanic, but belong (most likely) to a non-Germanic language

> If yes, however, they wouldn't be a residue of an
> earlier wider substrate, because the are in between exhibit
> place-names which have experimented all sound laws from PIE to
> Celtic (and no other sound laws), so there's direct continuity in
> Central (and Western) Europe form PIE to Celtic (and all possible
> words on non-IE origins have *better* IE-Celtic etymologies).

That is at odds with what I know. Please cite an example of a place name with competing NWB and Celtic etymologies in NWEurope.


> An ancient Venetic substrate in modern Venetian and Slovenian
> lies principally in place-names, e.g. Feltre, Fersil, Fersina,
> Fodom, Festornigo and so on. Maybe many place names of supposed
> Latin origin are in fact of Venetic origin


Many (coastal) Slovenian dialects have
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betacism ,
or rather the reverse, *w- -> *b-
according to
Josef Savli, Matej Bor
"Unsere Vorfahren die Venter"
which nice linguists don't read, but which provides much data.
cf.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59384?var=0&l=1
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59332
so I suspected identifying toponym (reverse) betacism would establish the presence of Veneti.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/60815?var=0&l=1
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62508?var=0&l=1

FWIW
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59928?var=0&l=1


Torsten