Re: The reason for Caesar's obtaining the two Gauls as province

> 2012/2/28, Torsten <tgpedersen@...>:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "guestu5er" <guestuser.0x9357@> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Pokorny:
> >> >'kalni- "enger Durchgang, enger Pfad"?
> >> >Lat. callis "Bergpfad, Waldweg, Gebirgstrift';
> >>
> >> Lewis & Short: callis "a stony footway, foot-path, mountain-path,
> >> pass, defile"
> >>
> >> >bulgar. klánik "Raum zwischen Herd und Wand",
> >> >serb. klánac, Gen. klánca "Engpaß",
> >>
> >> And Bg./Sb. kolnik. (Its Romanian variant is spelled colnic, with
> >> senses that makes it akin to Lat. collina, -ae < collinus, Fr.
> >> colline, Ital. collina.)
> >>
> >> (Seemingly only this South-Slavic word is a bit closer to callis,
> >> callem - all the others are of a KLAN- + -NIK, -NETZ kind.)
> >
> > That's not a problem.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_metathesis
> > As you can see, this rule would, given a loan before ca. 800 CE of
> > exactly the 'kolnik-' you cite produce the Slavic forms cited by
> > Ernout-Meillet.
> >>
> >> >sloven. klánəc "Hohlweg, Gebirgsweg, Rinnsal eines Baches,
> >> >Dorfgasse",
> >> >čech. klanec "Bergsattel, Paß".
> >> >WP. I 356 f., WH. I 140 f.'
> >> >
> >> >The geographical distribution points to an original Venetic
> >> >word. Suetonius' 'silvae callesque' seems to point to some
> >> >connection with "forest", pace Ernout-Meillet.
> >>
> >> An E-Eur. language that has it too is Romanian (=
> >> Vlach/Walachian):
> >> cale (plural căi [k&y]).
> >>
> >> It means not only a "Bergpfad, Waldweg", but also any kind of
> >> "Pfad/path"; as well as "avenue" (and "way", incl. in the fig.
> >> sense).
> >>
> >> e.g. Calea Laptelui "Milky Way"; din cale-afară "unusual; odd;
> >> very; utmost"; calea-valea [vale "valley"] "awright; schon gut";
> >> cale ferată "railway; railroad"; cale respiratorie "part of the
> >> breathing system"; dor de cale "Reiselust; -sehnsucht"; cale
> >> bună! "farewell! Gute Reise!"; cale de atac "(jur.) Anfechtungs-
> >> möglichkeit"; pe cale administrativă "auf (der) Verwaltungsebene;
> >> auf'm Dienstweg".
> >>
> >> Cale is phonetically close to cal (pl. cai [kay]) "horse" and
> >> călare "mounted". Hence a sentence like this can be concocted:
> >> Călare pe cal pe cale spre munte. ("On a horse's back on a
> >> road/way/path to a mountain.")
> >>
> >> http://www.etimo.it/?term=calle&find=Cerca
> >>
> >> (Romanian was spoken in various places within your geographical
> >> distribution for centuries, incl. by Istrorumanians, Mavrovlachs
> >> of Dalmatia, and Arumanians; as well as those "Valašskis" who
> >> were absorbed in Moravia, Slovakia as well as S-Poland &
> >> W-Ukraine.)
> >
> > The question is whether it was spoken at the time referred to by
> > Tacitus, ie. 60 BCE; if so, then in connection with the slave
> > trade through Nauportus. If so, Burebista himself might have used
> > it.
> >
> >> In Romanian, a semantic "rival" of cale is cärare < Lat.
> >> carraria, which is restricted, a bit more specialized on
> >> "Bergpfad". Its semantics changed a bit from that of the initial
> >> carraria. So, as synonyms they're are only in some cases
> >> interchangeable. A boulevard in Bucharest, Calea Victoriei, were
> >> ludicrous/mocking to be called Cărarea Victoriei, despite the
> >> fact that it better fits for... car traffic.)
> >
> > That kind of alternation is indicative of the word being a loan,
> > but I'm not aware of any r/l alternation in other loans from
> > Venetic(?).
> >
> > As E.-M. remarks, the Romans believed
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/68605
> > it was derived from
> > E.-M.
> > 'callum (et callus m., le pl. est toujours callī), -ī n.:
> > peau épaisse et dure (des animaux ou des plantes), durillon,
> > cal(us). -
> > Ancien. M.L.1521. A ce sens technique se rattachent
> > callōsus,
> > callōsitās,
> > callitia (-tie:s),
> > calle:scō
> > et ses composés (con-, in-, oc-, per-).
> > Un sens figuré apparaît dans le dérivé:
> > calleō , -e:s, -uī, -e:re: être endurci,
> > callent rure manus, Aetna 261; d'où "être habile dans quelque
> > chose, savoir par expérience". Plaute joue sur le double sens du
> > mot, Pe.305, mugis calleo quam aprugnum callum callet. S'emploie
> > absolument, ou avec l'acc. ou l'abl., avec ou sans in.
> > De là :
> > callidus: Cic., N.D.3,25, appello... callidos quorum, tamquam
> > manus opere, sic animus usu concalluit; "habile" souvent avec une
> > nuance péjorative, "rusé, roué" (cf. ueterātor et uersūtus). Dans
> > la Bible traduit ´υποκριτής et πανου~ργος.
> > Non roman, mais conservé en
> > celt.: britt. call.
> > Dérivés: calliditās; callidulus.
> > Sans étymologie. Mot populaire.'
> >
> > Thus a callis is a 'worn' road.
> >
> > If true, it is tempting to equate it with the Hohl- of Hohlweg.
> >
> > For the sense of 'calles', see also Tacitus Annales 4.27
> >
> > '[4.27] Eadem aestate mota per Italiam servilis belli semina fors
> > oppressit. auctor tumultus T. Curtisius, quondam praetoriae
> > cohortis miles, primo coetibus clandestinis apud Brundisium et
> > circumiecta oppida, mox positis propalam libellis ad libertatem
> > vocabat agrestia per longinquos saltus et ferocia servitia, cum
> > velut munere deum tres biremes adpulere ad usus commeantium illo
> > mari. et erat isdem regionibus Curtius Lupus quaestor, cui
> > provincia vetere ex more calles evenerant: is disposita
> > classiariomm copia coeptantem cum maxime coniurationem disiecit.'
> >
> > "The same summer, the germs of a slave war in Italy were crushed
> > by a fortunate accident. The originator of the movement was Titus
> > Curtisius, once a soldier of the praetorian guard. First, by
> > secret meetings at Brundisium and the neighbouring towns, then by
> > placards publicly exhibited, he incited the rural and savage
> > slave-population of the remote forests to assert their freedom. By
> > divine providence, three vessels came to land for the use of those
> > who traversed that sea. In the same part of the country too was
> > Curtius Lupus, the quaestor, who, according to ancient precedent,
> > had had the charge of the "woodland pastures" assigned to him.
> > Putting in motion a force of marines, he broke up the seditious
> > combination in its very first beginnings."
> >
> > The translation (Loeb?) uses "woodland pastures" for 'calles'
> > which makes no sense in the context. The context is interesting;
> > it is a slave rebellion on the sea route around Italy between
> > Aquileia, the port of the trafic overland from Nauportus, where
> > Caesar became proconsul (ie. the 'silvae callesque') and the port
> > of Puteoli, which was used for trade with the east. The appearance
> > of the quaestor with the responsibilty for the 'calles' on the
> > scene of the rebellion seems auspicious to Tacitus. That makes me
> > suspect that the 'calles', the control of which was important
> > enough for the Romans to appoint high civil servants to guard
> > them, was the route by which slaves were transported to Rome, and
> > that the use of that word was an euphemism for that disreputable
> > business. Note also that quaestors were in charge of the slave
> > auctions after successful campaigns.
> >

Please add comments at the bottom of the text commented.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:
>
> There's no -l-/-r- alternation (carraria is from carrus < Celtic
> *karros);

Are you sure?
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carso


> intervocalic -r- in Roumanian can reflect both Latin /l/
> and /r/, the distribution of the word between Latin and West and
> South Slavonic hints at its presence in Venetic as well,

As I said.

> but the further inference that the word wasn't inherited from
> Proto-Indo-European in Slavonic and Latin isn't sufficiently
> founded.

'calles' has root 'a', thus it is a 'mot populaire' and as such not directly descended from PIE by the same route as 'regular' Latin. Ie. it is a loan.


> With such a reasoning,
> You could state that the PIE rex-word, because it's attested from
> Ireland to India, must be a loan from a language in between (e.g.
> Phrygian)

I can't see the parallel. I was arguing from the proximity of the descendants, not the opposite.


Torsten