Re: German loans in Polish

>
> >The important thing here was the *oldest*, pre-Ostsiedlung layer
> >of German loanwords in Polish.
>
> I know; yet the beginning of OS is also important, since the
> transition from OHG to MHG was gradual, centuries long - at least
> as far as *vocabulary* is of concern.

The important thing here was the *oldest*, pre-Ostsiedlung layer
of German loanwords in Polish.

>
> >For that layer, what happened in the 12th-13th century CE is
> >irrelevant.
>
> It is.
>
> >>Von den drei großen d. Dialektgruppen Obd., Md. und Nd.
>
> Actually, in the era of old OHG, one barely can speak of "Obd,
> Md, Nd". These more and more have been outlined in later
> centuries (up to... AD 2011).

Kästner does. That's what's relevant.

> North Sea and Alps German had
> way less differences in Clovis's and Charlemagne's times than
> 1,000 years later on.

You don't say.

> But even today, one can deem Obd + Md as
> being a compact family in stark contrast with Nd. The cited
> authors don't insist on that,

Because it's not relevant to the question of which dialects the German loanwords in Polish came from.

> but if you asked them appropriately, the'd confirm this.

The article is from 1939; Kästner is most likely dead.

> (Other sources, some of them quoted by
> the "Atlas der dt. Sprache", much of the Eastern colonization
> was done by LG-speaking colonists. Thus, corroborating your
> sources.)

I know.

> >>Mit obd. Dialekten hat das P. auch in älterer Zeit keine direkte
> >>Berührung gehabt.
>
> This might tempt one conclude that those "ostelbische" ancient
> Germanic tribes emigrated altogether leaving there no rests.

Kästner is making a geographical statement here about the physical separation between Upper German and Old Polish, that's all.

> >>Die Wörter sollen demnach mit einer von Oberdeutschland
> >>ausgehenden Kulturströmung über Böhmen, Mähren und Schlesien ins
> >>P. gekommen sein, wobei dem md. Schlesien im wesentlichen nur eine
> >>vermittelnde Stellung zukam.
>
> Which must have been the "normal" path: for a long time, the
> cultural strongholds were in the South (as well as OHG: some kind of
> chiefly _Southern_ written Proto-Deutsch language! e.g. "ben zi
> bena, gelid zi geliden". NB: Even today, in 2011, _z<vowel>_ is, in
> northern LG dialects, namely to the North of Cologne - Berlin -
> Kaliningrad ___to___ as in English! Or: zu Haus(e) vs. to Huus (So
> far the accomplishment of shound shifts.)).

Basic knowledege.
Why are you telling me this?

> > Also in older times Polish didn't have any direct contact with
> > Upper German dialects.
>
> If those numerous Germanic tribes (Suebians, Langobards etc.)
> moved from there to South Germany, Alsace, Switzerland, Austria,
> Northern Italy, Northern Spain, they must have had some contacts
> with Proto-Polish populace as well. Even if there'd be no written
> evidence.

So you're saying Low or Central German loans should have come to Old Polish too? Too bad, because they didn't. If you think otherwise, show me.

> >Upper German words thus could only have come into Polish by
> > transmisson through Czech (hardly through Upper Sorbian).
>
> Yes. But one can assume a Czech-Moravian-Sorbian-Polish dialectal
> continuum, comprising all kinda (later) German immigrant isles...

Yes, we can, but are talking about the earliest, pre-Ostsiedlung loans, so irrelevant.

> Among immigrants, in the 12th-13rd c. groups of Germans coming
> from the Mosel-Franconian dialect area (Belgium, Luxembourg,
> Rhineland) and settled in what's today Slovakia, within the
> kingdom of Hungary - i.e. nextdoorneighbor of Poland). The German
> spoken by those kind of colonists: mixture of Alemanian and
> Middle German dialects, also containing LG features.

Irrelevant. The oldest, pre-Ostsiedlung German loans in Polish are Upper German.

> >In Bohemia and Moravia a strong German influence is active early.
>
> Because they quite early belonged to the Holy Roman Empire.
>
> >It is conditioned not so much on the remaining local Germanic
> >splinter populations (descendants of Marcomanni, Quadi, Langobardi)
> >as on the German resettlement in the 12th century.
>
> Meine Rede! :)
>
> >Considering the young place name layers, Bretholz' idea of an
>
> /To memorize: ***"young place name layers***/
>
> >Upper German loanwords should thus for the above-mentioned reasons
> >be expected only for the older layers. By the evaluation of Upper
> >German phonetic phenomena due diligence is recommended, since East
> >Central German dialects, especially Mountain Silesian and
> >Glätz.(?), show, as the last remnant of the layer of Bavarian
> >settlement, a number of Upper German phonetic developments
>
> Des woa ma scho, des kunnst glaam.
>
> >Interesting, but not relevant to the topic of German loanwords in
> >Polish.
>
> The Ordo Teutonicus presence in the neighborhood also might have had
> its influence (worth investigating).
>
> >I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that you're trying here, as
> >you've done before, to argue that since Central German and Upper
> >German dialects are similar, they are the same.
>
> Not the same, but similar (way much closer to one another, as far
> as phonetics & vocabulary are of concern; where as Old Saxony,
> namely the real Saxon's land has been something really different.
> NB: the German population living in modern (upper) Saxony, namely
> in Dresden, Leipzig etc., do not speak LG dialects, and their
> German is extremely closed to standard German and very close to
> the remotest southern Oberdeutsch.

Basic knowledge. I know.

> >However, similar =/= identical.
>
> Compare your own idiom, Danish, with them:

Danish is a language, not an idiom. Please keep German political aspirations out of the discussions.

> LG is much closer to Danish,

and to Norwegian and Swedish, but even closer to Dutch and English

> while Alemanian and Bavarian are the remotest. In a 10
> point scale between Copenhagen and Klagenfurt,

that is, between Rostock and Klagenfurt, no one speaks a German dialect in Copenhagen, in particular not a Low German one

> methinks Leipzig
> and Dresden are parted by the "axis" Strasbourg-Stuttgart-Munich-
> Vienna" only by 2-3 notches and by 7 notches from Aarhus.

from Schleswig. Low German is spoken in Northern Schleswig exclusively by the German minority Minority (20,000-30,000 people, almost all of them collaborating with the Germans occupiers in WWII) and nowhere in Denmark north of Schleswig and never was.

> That's
> what I mean. Or take Aachen (Ooche) and Cologne (Köln/Kölle):
> they are MG, also containing many features that "open the gate"
> to the entire LG world (incl. Schleswig-Holstein),

Low German in Schleswig north of the Schlei is an intrusive language which spread there at the expense of Danish dialects around 1780 - 1800.

> but by and large
> it has more in common with what's spoken in Bavaria, Tirol, Austria,
> and Swiss cantons (incl. the preservation of ancient "enk" for
> "euch": "önch").

I know.

> >Similar does not mean identical.
>
> Wem sachn Se das!... :)

You.

> >If you want to argue that the earliest German loans to Polish are
> >Central German, not Upper German, please do.
>
> Oh no, I won't. I some time ago vaguely also read Obd. was the
> no. 1 kind of German in that respect.
>
> >1. Those Upper German words were carried on a 'Kulturströmung'
> >going from Bavaria via the Czech lands to Lesser Poland (Walther
> >Kästner's proposal).
>
> Li'l wonder:

Kästner is imagining things; he has only linguistic data to base this claim on. The Radhanites however were real.

> the oldest OHG written remnants were jotted down in
> Bavaria, Suebia and Switzerland. Evidence has shown that LG
> speaking Germans in Northern regions rather adapted their scribbling
> to the Southern writers' idiosincrasies.

I know.

> >2. Old Upper German was once spoken in the Old Polish area, before
> >the Ostsiedlung of the 12th-13th century (as I also proposed
> >earlier etc etc).
>
> Awright. I expect the next questions: "Was this due to mere influen-
> ces from intermediaries Bohemia and Moravia?" and "Was this so due
> to pockets of "East-Elbe" Germanic-speaking populaces that never
> left along with those migrators who settled South Germany, Switzer-
> land, Northern Italy and Noricum (Austria; up to Balaton as well as
> to the Danube).

Yes, that was the question. And your answer?

>(Tja, wenn man es wüßte, wie's ausgschaugt hot von Küste zu Küste... :))
>

You decline. Okay.



Torsten