Re: Crist's /z/-deletion (was: Gmc. w-/g-, j-/g-)

From: stlatos
Message: 68214
Date: 2011-11-17

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
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> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
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> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
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> > > [...]

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> > Look at the examples on the other website I gave: there are more Gmc. with zd > rd / d (such as "woad").
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> The paper can be found by searching for "crist_z_loss".


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> Crist argues that the OHG words for 'meed' were borrowed from Ingvaeonic. I agree, and it must have happened at least twice, before and after the High German consonant-shift. In addition to the forms which Crist cites from Torp, Feist has OHG <meida>, with the same vocalism as OFris <meide>. This brings up another matter. Crist's /z/-deletion and compensative lengthening must follow Ingvaeonic lowering of */i/ to */e/ before */z/, as he notes in §11


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> The OED gives OE <weard>, <werd> as glosses for 'sandix', which is also the usual way of glossing 'woad': "Hic sandyx, þis wad" (Ælfric, c. 1000). "Sandix, wod" (early ME voc., c. 1200, cited from Wright-Wülcker). The connection between <weard>, <werd> and <wa:d> is considered doubtful in the OED, but it is too similar to <meord> against <me:d> to dismiss. Medieval Latin forms like <ouisdelem> acc. sg. 'woad', said to be from Gothic, go back as far as the 6th-cent. Oribasius Medicus, from which Souter (Gl. of Later Latin) cites <guisdil> or <auisdil>. Like modern Rx-men, the compiler of the Oribasius was not noted for orthographic accuracy or neat handwriting, and <ouisdil> may have been intended. At any rate, since we cannot know the exact source of the ML words, or how far they were deformed before scribal usage stabilized them, Crist is correct in rejecting the supposed Gothic zero-grade *wizdila as a basis for usable conclusions.
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I would say * wizda- > werd \ weard [read: weord ?] OE; making the alt. oi / i(i) , identical to that in vi:rus L; vis.á- S; i:ós G; wáse OE; ooze E; etc. The conclusion is thus PIE * ßeyF+ / ßiyF+ = health / spirit / medicine / potion / poison / magic > * wöys.+ / etc.; and a cp. (w * dHexY+ = make) * ßeyFdHGYó+ = ((plant) used for) making med. / dye > * wöys.d.Hó+ > * wayzda- > wád (nu) OE; * ßiyFdHGYó+ > * wizda- > werd OE; etc.


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> Since Crist recognizes that non-final /z/-deletion never occurs after a back vowel in WGmc, he is not guilty of connecting OE <ha:d> n. 'hair' with ON <haddr> m. 'a woman's long hair' (Gmc. *hazdaz, IE *koz-dHo-), but Campbell (cited in §7) and Köbler are. I believe we should refer OE <ha:d> to Gmc. *haidam, IE *kh{a}i-tóm or *kh{a}i-dHóm, related to Lat. <caesar> 'full head of hair' (with its intervocalic -s-, obviously a Sabinism), <caesarie:s> 'bushy-hairedness; bushy head', Skt. <késara-> m./n. 'hair, mane' (with -s- for expected -s.-, probably borrowed from Middle Indic; cf.
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The V is not the sole conditioning factor: is > is. , etc. , but also kVs > kVs. , etc. , as I've also discussed for cases of tt > ss / st. Those ex. you gave all have -s- and it's almost unthinkable not to relate all of them (as I do using ke/ka alt. (as in * kel/kal) and ey/ay/iy > i/i:/etc., as above).


> In the Appendix (p. 8), Crist questions how Torp can assign the OE compound <wunden-heord> 'having curled hair'(?) to Gmc. *hazdaz without a high front vocoid to produce umlaut before breaking. Köbler cites (apparently) the same word as <bunden-heord> 'having bound hair', so it appears that scholars now read <b> instead of <w> in the MS. Regarding the umlaut, all I can suggest is that the Gmc. compound adjective was an /i/-stem, *bundana-hazdi-, even though the simplex *hazdaz was an /a/-stem. This sort of thing is common enough in Latin, where we have (for example) <arma> 'arms, weapons', an /o/-stem noun, yielding /i/-stem adjectives like <inermis> 'unarmed' and <se:m(i)ermis> 'half-armed'.


ke/ka alt.


Your borrowing is too unlikely, including a record-high number of supposed borrowings from l. that contained zC and underwent changes into other l. that contained zC and underwent different changes.


> > The thought of "meed" being a borrowing is also found there, but from another Gmc. language w regular reflexes. That also doesn't work, and is given only to make a stupendous attempt at avoiding any alt. or irregularity. A non-Gmc. language as the source makes no sense, all things considered. Only my changes make sense and fit into the types of changes seen in irregular reflexes in other IE languages.
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> Sheesh! This guy could beat Sarah Palin in an ego contest!
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> Detailed examination of Sean Crist's paper, plus additional relevant material, turned up no evidence for optional soundlaws. Questions remain, as they always will, since we do not have records of every word ever spoken. But invoking optional soundlaws only obfuscates the issues and hinders the search for real soundlaws.
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> Speaking of Sarah Palin, optional soundlaws are a bridge to nowhere.
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If you choose to remain ignorant, fine, but don't try to belittle those with knowledge.