From: Torsten
Message: 67987
Date: 2011-08-18
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@> wrote:
> > ________________________________
> > From: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > But before proceeding further, I should check what Du Cange has
> > > to say about <larricium>.
> >
> > Enough to posit a West Mediterranean *larr-. I am trying to see
> > whether West Germanic 'lark' can be referred to a NWB compound
> > based on this substratal word.
> >
> >
> > *****R I don't think lark can be linked to *larr because lark is
> > from something like *lawarkaz; see Old Spanish laverca from Gothic
> > or Frankish. There is a Scots word in an old song laverock which I
> > think means "lark" but it's been a while
> >
> Yes. All the attested older forms have *law- but I have seen one
> suggestion that WGmc earlier had *larwarkjo:n vel sim. with the
> first /r/ lost to dissimilation. This raises at least the
> possibility of a NWB compound *larr(a)-warkan- vel sim.
> 'meadow-defender'(??), borrowed into WGmc and reinterpreted (at
> least in some OE dialects) as 'treason-worker', hence
> folk-etymological deformation. Here the loss of the stem-vowel of
> the first element would be regular in NWB in this position (as I
> have postulated for *Der(u)-went-) and the syllable-final -rr- would
> be shortened to -r- before its dissimilative loss. But the devil is
> in the details, and unless I can come up with a phonologically
> concrete scenario, this connection must be regarded as highly
> speculative.
>
> The Old Spanish form is probably from Frankish, unless the Goths
> also borrowed it from WGmc. The word does not appear to be Common
> Gmc. The only Old Norse form is in a glossary and appears to have
> been borrowed from Old English.
>
> At any rate, the etymology of <lark> is nothing but.
>
Out of boredom I hovered the mouse over the other-language versions in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylark
and found some forms I haven't seen discussed yet:
http://br.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alc%27hweder_sant_P%C3%AAr 'alc'hweder'
http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alosa_vulgar
http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%B5ldl%C3%B5oke 'põldlõoke'
(põld "field", lõoke "lark", according to my dictionary)
http://frr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiallaask
'(laask, mo. loosch, sö. lörke)' presumably dialect forms
Since
Proto-Celtic *sw- -> Brythonic *xw- (Breton written c'hw-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages
Breton 'alc'hweder' <- *alsweder
Falk & Torp
'Lerke I (fugl),
sv. lärka (glsv. lærikia),
oldn. læ^virki
=
ags. lâwrice, lâwerce, læ^werce (eng. lark),
mnt. lêwer(i)ke (holl. leeuwerik),
oht. lêrahha, mht. ogsaa lêwerech (nht. Lerche).
Germ. grundform rimeligvis
*laiwazakôn (sml. fris. lâsk),
vel af *laiwaz- med suffikset ak-
(sml.got. ahaks «due»).
Ifald *laiw- er opstaaet af
idg. *lavÉ,
kan der bestaa sammenhæng med
lat. (egentl. kelt.) alauda «lerke»,
der er beslegtet med
laus «ros»[praise] og med
gael. luaidh «omtale»[mention],
fjernere maaske ogsaa med
oldn. ljôð «sang», got. liuþôn «synges» (idg. rod *leu-).'
The latter possibility is intersting, since we have
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiuru
Finnish leivo and leivonen "lark", and
laula "song"
beside the 'Slavic block'
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C5%99ivan_poln%C3%AD
'skÅivan'
http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poljska_%C5%A1eva
'Å¡eva'
http://csb.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%B3lny_sk%C3%B2wr%C3%B3nk
'skòwrónk'
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skowronek_zwyczajny
'skowronek'
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BA
'žávoronok'
http://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0kovr%C3%A1nok_po%C4%BEn%C3%BD
'škovránok'
http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poljski_%C5%A1krjanec
'Å¡krjanec'
http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B9
'žayvoronok'
which made me think of another solution
de Vries
barð
'1 n 'rand, kante; hügel; steven',
...
2 m 'bart'.
...
Es ist fraglich ob dieses wort von barð i zu trennen ist. Wie skegg gehört zu skógr, so kann die bed. 'bart', auf 'den mit kurzen loden bewachsenen wurzelstock' zurückgehen und dann gehören zu der für die Unterwaldwirtschaft bedeutsame idg. wzl. *bher (vgl. berja); ...'
'skegg n, 'hart; eisenspitze am bug; mann' (< urn. *skegja);
nisl. fär. skegg,
nnorw. skjegg,
nschw. skägg,
ndä. skæg. ->
ne. dial. skeg(g) 'gerstenart' (Thorson 45); >
orkn. skegg 'grannen einer ähre' (Marwick 150); >
lpN. skavÄa 'bart'
(< urn. *skagja! s. Collinder APhS 3, 1928, 217). -
ae. sceacga 'haupthaar',
nnl. scheg vorbau am steven'
dial. 'scharfe nase, kinn' (Hj. Lindroth ANF 20, 1904, 367). -
Dazu skeggi m. 'mann', auch PN.; 'schiff',
nnorw. skjegg BN, > ne. ON. Schegebi; > norm. ON. Equiqueville (Jakobsen DSt 1911, 68).
- skeggja f. 'streitaxt; schiff' (nach den hervorstechenden ecken).
- Skeggjar mpl. 'bewohner der Färöer; >
air. Sciggire (Marstrander NVA 1915 Nr 5, 59 u. 92).
- vgl. skagi und skógr
(für die Verwandtschaft der bed. 'niederwald' und 'bart',
vgl. barð 2).'
'skógr m. 'wald',
nisl. skógur,
fär. skóg(v)ur,
nnorw schw skog,
ndä. skov. ->
me. scogh (Bjorkman 128),
ne dial. scaw, skeugh (Thorson 43), >
manx -scog (Marstrander NTS 6, 1932, 244), >
mnd. schoff (Brattegard, NTS 7, 1934, 283), >
lpN. skog, skoug (Qvigstad 298). -
eig. 'etwas hervorstechendes'
(zur bed. entw. s. Lidén SVS Uppsala 6, 1897, Nr 1, 33)-
vgl. skaga und -skægi, aber auch sax.'
I noticed that many of the Slavic etc larks were 'polny', ie "field-", and recalled that there also is an English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodlark
So I assumed that North Germanic *skog- (*skoN-?) originally didn't mean actual "forest", but more something like "shrubbery", and voilà , the Slavic lark could be understood as
*skoN-ik (where *skoN- -> *skor#/skon-) ->
PWest-Slavic *skonr-ik/skorn-ik "shrubbery lark"
as the West/North European is
*laN-ik (where *plaN- -> *plar#/plan-) ->
Proto-? *lanr-ik etc "field lark"
vel sim.!!! (obviously I don't have all the details yet)
Torsten