Re: <Venta> was The Finnic issue

> > GK: Only one of the three Ventas is connected to the Belgae. The
> > others are Venta Icenorum and Venta Silurum. Looks like the poor
> > Veneti got it from everybody (:=)). But seriously, I think the
> > link to the discussion mentioned by Brian Scott is useful, and the
> > notion that "venta" was a borrowing into Celtic worthy of further
> > study. On the Venet/Vened problem cf. also ch. 3 here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5aoId7nA4bsC&pg=PA87&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

>
> BojtÃ¡r, as a Continental, has got it wrong on one point: Coast
> people like the Veneti don't wander, they sail.
> ****GK: I've only read parts of this (not yet registered as a
> googlite(:=)) Bojtar seems to have borrowed his map from Labuda
> (also a Continental though). What I like about this is the statement
> that the only evidence remaining about the original Venets/Veneds is
> their name, scattered all over the place.****

True, and what we can connect to that name
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/files/Welsch-Namen/Karte_1
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/files/Maps%20from%20Udolph/29%20Winithi.jpg
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/files/Maps%20from%20Udolph/28%20-ithi.jpg

the *draN- (Drau, Drawa, Derwent) rivers, and the *bolg-/wolg- rivers;
in Denmark eg (from HÃ¥ndbog i danske stednavne)

'41.

Vindeby s. Lolland NÃ¸rre h. 1379 Winneby, 1391 Wyndeby.
Vindeby, Bregninge s. TÃ¥singe. 1537 Vindeby.
Vindeby, Lindelse s. Langeland SÃ¸nder h. 1455 Windeby.

Forleddet er gen. pl. winda af folkenavnet windir âvender" (DS XI, 64). Tolkningen âvendernes by" (se Hald VS 110, 225) har selvfÃ¸lgelig forbindelse med den hyppige vendiske bosÃ¦ttelse i det sydlige Danmark i middelalderen, som Ã¥benbart ikke udelukkende har vÃ¦ret en militÃ¦r besÃ¦ttelse, men fÃ¸r el. efter de egentlige vendertog har vÃ¦ret af fredeligere karakter. Se herom St. Sawicki i AphS XII, 196. Teorien om vendisk besÃ¦ttelse afvises af Vilh. la Cour SÃ¸nderj. hist. I, 289. Han tÃ¦nker sig et mn. *Windi som forled.
...

144.
Vinding(e). Med dette navn findes flg. lokaliteter (bortset fra nogle gÃ¥rdnavne):
Vinding, Oddum s. N. Horne h. 1688 Lille Winding.
Vinding s. Tyrsting h. *1416 Windingh, 1400-t. Vynnyndhsoken.
Vinding s. Ulfborg h. 1330-48 Wenningh. Vinding s. Holmans h. *1324 Wynnyngh.
Vindinge s. Tune h. *1184 Vindinge.
Vindinge s. og h. 1352 WinimgÃ¦ (fejlskr. f. WiningÃ¦). Se reg. E: 117.
Refs-Vindinge, Kastrup s. Hammer h. 1435 Refswynninge, 1497 Reffs wynninge. Neder-Vindinge, Kastrup s. Hammer h. *1231 Winninge.
Over-Vindinge, SvÃ¦rdborg s. Hammer h. 1306 Winninge, *1351 ÃffrÃ¦ WinninghÃ¦.

Der menes her at foreligge en afledning af roden i vb. winnÃ¦ âudfÃ¸re, overvinde, erhverve". Muligvis er det eg. et appellativ dannet til vb. vinde med betydning âbearbejdning, opdyrkning" med senere overgang til konkret betydning âopdyrket jord". Se DS XII, 195.
[I obviously disagree]
...

110.

Vindelev s. NÃ¸rvang h. 1330-48 WenderlÃ¸Ã¸f, 1460 WindÃ¦leff
Vindelev, Sahl s. Ginding h. 1467 WinderlÃ¸ff, 1510 WindelÃ¸ff.

Se reg. B: WINDI 1, forled her dog snarest *WINDIR, hvis r-formerne er Ã¦gte. De yngre former uden r taler for Windi.
ANM. OgsÃ¥ Vinderslev s. LysgÃ¥rd h. hÃ¸rer mul. herhen, se reg. B: WINDI. Smst. om Halds forslag om folkenavnet vender samt SÃ¸nderg. Lev p. 121.
...

40. VinderÃ¸d s. StrÃ¸ h. Se reg. B: *WINDI 1.
...

153.
Vindeltorp, SkrÃ¸belev s. Langeland NÃ¸rre h. 1472 Windethorpp. Villendrup, Halling s. Galten h. 1406 Windeldorp, 1573 Viildendrup.

Forleddet vistnok gen. pl. af folkenavnet windir âvender", omtydet til vindel-.
...

WINDI, anthroponym
1.
Vindelev s. NÃ¸rvang h. Vindelev, Sahl s. Ginding h.
Se reg. A: LEV 110. Efter Hald NO er forleddet mn. WÃ¦:mund, hvorimod SÃ¸nderg. Lev p. 121 snarest holder pÃ¥ Windi. Et beslÃ¦gtet Windir, gen. -is formodes af DS IX, 198 i Vinderslev s. LysgÃ¥rd h. *1416 Winsleffsokn, *1442 VindislÃ¸ff, 1445 VinderslÃ¸ff, 1468 WinneslÃ¦ff. MÃ¥ske er det folkenavnet vender, vn. vindr, der foreligger her (Hald PD I, 26) som i VinderÃ¸d s. StrÃ¸ h. c. 1370 VindÃ¦rvth (Hald NO) jfr. ogsÃ¥ VinderÃ¸d, SÃ¸rup s. Nyherred, Sydsl. (Sydsl. St. VII, 230). Se reg. A: RÃD 40.
2.
Vinderup, Sahl s. Ginding h. *1274 Windorp.
Vinderup, Sandby s. Tybjerg h. 1260 Windethorp, 1336 WynÃ¦rp.
3.
VindebÃ¦k, Fanefjord s. MÃ¸nbo h. 1513-33 WynnÃ¦bÃ¦ck, 1596 Windebeck.
Efter Hald Syds. St. VII, 266 er forleddet adj. vind âskÃ¦v", vel sigtende til topografiske forhold.
4.
Vinstrup, Dalbyover s. Gerlev h. 1469 Winstrop.
Vinstrup, gd. St. Olai s. Vennebjerg h. 1471 Weinstrup, 1512 Winstrop. Vinstrup, S. Asmindrup s. MerlÃ¸se h. c. 1370 Winstorp. Vinstrup, Tystrup s. Ã. Flakkebjerg h. 1404 Vynstorp.
I nr. 4 mÃ¥ formodes en stÃ¦rktbÃ¸jet sideform til Windi, altsÃ¥ *WIND el. mÃ¥ske et appellativ glda. win âven". Se SÃ¸nderg. Lev p. 122.
[Unlikely]
...

10.
Binitse, Hillested s. Fuglse h. *1456 Binitzegaard, udt. [ben-sa]. Efter St. Sawicki AphS XII (1937) p. 191 et vendisk navn, afledt af mn. Ben < Benedikt el. Benjamin. DS XI, 108.
[or < Vin-itse, with Venetic *w- > *b-]'
...

65. Korselitse, hgd. SÃ¸nder Alslev s. Falster SÃ¸nder h. *1231 KÃ¸cÃ¦liz, 1425 Kosselisse, 1511 KossÃ¦lyssÃ¦. Regnes for det eneste helt sikre vendiske navn pÃ¥ Falster. Det skal komme af et mn. *Kotil, polsk Kociel. Nutidsformen Korse- beror vel pÃ¥ folkeetymologisk tilknytning til ordet kors, der pÃ¥ Falster udtales [kÃ¥s]. Se DS XI, 291. St. Sawicki AphS XII, 183 f.

66. Kramnitse Gab, indsejling ti] RÃ¸dbyfjord. Har tidl. vÃ¦ret sammenstillet med det pommerske stn. Krambnitz og Grambenitze pÃ¥ Rugen og afledt af et polsk subst. krzemien âskifer", sÃ¥ledes at navnet skulle betyde noget i retning af âFlinterenden". Navnet er uklart, og der er uenighed om efterleddet er -nÃ¦s el. -hus (Hald VS 226, Sawicki AphS XII, 193). Viggo BrÃ¸ndal har (DSt 1920, 32, jfr. DS XI, 51, 211) formodet subst. kram i nty. betydning âhandelsbod", indlÃ¥nt med hanseaterne.
...

112. Tillitse s. Lolland SÃ¸nder h. *1329 Tiliz, *1387 Tylitze sogenn, udt. [tel:sÉ]. Menes at vÃ¦re vidnesbyrd om vendisk bosÃ¦ttelse, af et urslavisk *tiliti, en afledning til mn. Tilo. St. Sawicki AphS XII, 190.'

> Forget about all the arrows showing putative wanderings, whatever
> migrating they did was by their beloved ships, and it wasn't a
> one-way trip either. Those coastal and riverine communities must
> have had trade going on between them, in the style of the later
>
> ****GK: One of the first things to do (and even that isn't easy) is
> to disentangle the various Venet/Vened place names et sim.

No. That's the Continental way ;-)

> It seems pretty clear to me (but discussion welcome) that for the
> Germanics the term Vened et sim. played a role similar to that of
> "Volcae". There were historical times when it applied to Slavs (and
> not to seafaring ones either).

Sorry, wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdemar_I_of_Denmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarmers_Tower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_V_of_Denmark#Reign

> In that sense it seems to have been borrowed by Tacitus. Perhaps
> some of the Vened placenames in Germania refer to Slavs, esp. those
> close to the settlement areas of the 6th c. I think a case can also
> be made (and has been made) for Veneds as standing for the
> Germanics' earlier eastern neighbours (the Lusatians and
> Pomeranians) whence it was later reapplied to Slavs, much like
> "Volcae" et sim later stood for a variety of populations/.

Yes,

> On the other hand, it seems very arguable that at some time "Vened"
> stood for (at least) primarily "coastal communities".

Only indirectly in the sense that the Veneti were a coastal people, so that copmmunities bearing their name tend to be close to water.

> Ptolemy is a good source for such usage. Then we have to figure out
> how this term came to be applied as an ethnonym to both a Celtic and
> an Italic group (both coastal).

?? 'Wendisch' etc never refers to anything specically Celtic AFAIK.

> What is your view of the Livonian "Venden"? Cf.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends
>
> I've looked at the Livonian Chronicle. It mentions the following
> facts about them:
> (1) They were the original inhabitants of the river Venta in today's
> Latvia.
> (2) They were chased away from there by the Curonians (a Baltic
> tribe)
> (3) After this they resided for a time in the location where Riga
> was later founded.
> (4) The Curonians attacked them again, massacred a whole bunch, and
> the remaining Vends moved further east and settled among the Letts,
> with whom they had peaceful coexistence.
> (5) They were christianized in 1207, and established good relations
> with the Livonian Knights of the Sword, who erected a castle on the
> location of an earlier Vendic settlement.
> (6) They existed as a distinct community for another 400 years.

That's all I know too. That was where I got my idea of the Veneti of Tacitus as impoverished and on a downhill slope.

> All we can say is that events (1) through (4) occurred before 1184
> (when the Livonian Chronicle begins).
> Also, these Vends do not appear to be either Baltic nor Finnic (they
> did not wish to blend in with the Livs and were distincts from the
> Letts among which they settled).
> One issue about them: were they named after the river or was the
> river named after them?

> Another: How much earlier than 1184 did events (1) through (3)
> occur? It would help if we could estimate the Curonian landnahme.

Yes.

Torsten

Re: was The Finnic issue