From: Torsten
Message: 67708
Date: 2011-06-07
>FWIW
>
> > Meillet had very short lists of words that were W IE, vs. E IE.
> > etc. I don't think he labeled them as substrate but the
> > implication was there as I remember.
> > With all your personal archives, it would be nice for you to form
> > such a list if you haven't already done so. Then we can see if
> > they really are or not.
> > This of course raises the questions of how to tell the difference
> > between substrate/adstrate vs. innovation.
>
> Well, there is of course Kuhn's old p- list
> http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/list.html
> some of which may be non-IE.
> As for a list specific to west IE alone: most of the substrate words
> I find I relate to a particular susbstrate, and I don't have a
> particular substrate for west IE alone, except possibly Venetic.
> Could you be specific as to which substrate you want the word on the
> list to be from?
>
> BTW, I'm toying with the idea the Venetic had free accent (not
> initial or penultimate like the languages of N Europe now), as seen
> eg. some Polish river names: Brda < *Dbra, Gwda, and that many north
> IE roots of the form *C1C2VC3-, which in the present interpretation
> extended roots where *C1eC2- is a PIE root and *-VC3- is an
> 'extension' are actually built as a Venetic periphrastic
> construction, where *C1C2VC3- is a nominal form of the PIE verb
> *C1eC2-. Example: English glad, German glatt "slippery" from a ppp
> *gl-ádh- of *gel- "freeze". In other words 'glad' as a crooked
> cognate of 'gelato'.
>
> Pokorny seems to have gotten a similar idea:
> 1. ghel- (und ghel- ?), auch als i-, u- oder n-Stamm; g^hel&-:
> g^hle;-, g^hlo:-: g^hl&- 'glänzen, schimmern'; als Farbadjektiv:
> 'gelb, grün, grau oder blau'.
> Mit Rücksicht auf die häufigen Fälle, wo die idg. Palatale im
> Balto-slav. durch Velare vertreten sind, möchte ich statt durch ein
> Nebeneinander von g^el-, g^hel- und ghel- lieber mit Persson (Beitr.
> 790) und Kretschmer (Gl. 21, 115) das baltoslav. *gel- durch
> Entlehnung aus einer Kentumsprache ( Ven.-Illyr. ?) erklären.
> ...
> g^el-, g^el&-, g^le:-, (auch *gele:i-:) g^(e)l&i- 'hell, heiter
> glänzen' und 'heiter sein, lächeln, lachen'.
> ...
> 1. gel(&)- 'kalt, frieren'.
>