Saupe < župan (Re: Schöffe I)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgsoo1" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:

>
> >Yes, but I was talking about PIE.
>
> Some ocurrences typical of certain epochs might repeat in other
> epochs; or in other geographic/dialectal areas.
>
> >All examples from Saxony, ie. old Czech lands.
>
> Which shows the primeval area of the "impact". Followed by Austria.

Of župan/Saupe, not of Schöffe/schepen which I suspect is an earlier loan, back in Ariovistus' time.

> >Here's another, I think
> >http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zschopau
> >1286 Schapa
> >or?
> >http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zschopau_(Fluss)
>
> Yes. BTW, sometimes it is difficult to make the difference: there
> are other bunches of saup-, sup-, soppe- etc. that are not related
> with Zhupan & Schoppe/Schöppe/Schöffe, but with... Sumpf
> (marshlands), so that I expect many such place names, river names,
> person names in the middle, south and NW Germany to be interpreted
> always as such, so that one doesn't know how far to the West was (or
> has been) the actual spreading of the German adaptation for the
> Slavic word zhupan.

In my own scenario, where the Charudes were Croats, Slavs would have arrived together with Ariovistus on a path Silesia -> Thuringia -> Alsace, the legal institution of Schöffe would have arrived in Germany with them. Cf
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66141
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66147

> >Interesting that Meyer needs to split the word into two in order
> >to maintain its Slavic provenance and also account for its
> >presence in areas with no known Slavic settlement.
>
> Yes, because earlier one thought it must have been a compositum:
> s<vowel>- + pan "lord", and not a derivate of the geographic,
> administrative and social term zhupa (kind of "county", or
> earlier a certain "community").

No, because since he assumes Slavic provenance of Saupe he must come up with something else in non-Slavic areas.

> >Here you are assuming a Slavic provenance of 'župan', but it
> >might be a loan there too.
>
> Slavic provenance only in the sense that "German might have
> borrowed it from a western Slavic idiom". Whether župa is an
> old Slavic creation or a loanie itself, I don't know; I'd ask
> Slavists.
>

OK.

> >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/18991
>
> Yes, of course: if the Protobulgarian (or Bulgar) word "zoapan"
> (spelled this way in Greek letters in the famous text with
> "boila butaul"; and whose pronunciation is unknown) is really
> the model/origin for župa/n & Su:pe/Saupe, Schöppe, Schöffe,
> then the oldest origin might have been Scythian and/or Tokharian,
> since east-Caucasian zhoopan and Sogdian chupan are attested.

Or even Semitic.

> So that one can also assume that Hunnic-Turkic chaban/choban
> initially had the meaning of this *rank*, and that the meaning
> "shepherd" was a secondary one (initially).

I think it's the other way around, 'herder' -> 'leader'. You call bishops shepherds, but you don't call shepherds bishops.

> (It also can be that pan in chupan/zhoopan is not the same
> as ban. What do experts in Old and Middle Iranian languages
> say about these termes: ban and chaban/zhoopan?)
>
>
> > No, what we have attested is that Saupe (<- *zūpa?) is a loan from
> > Slavic. Its provenance in Slavic is unknown.
>
> Neither did I mean that zhupa is a Slavic creation; I only meant
> "it entered German dialects from Slavic dialects". So, as Slavic
> as, say, Pferd and Mauer are German (actually latin: paraveredus,
> murus).

OK.

> >>>Through 'Jespan'?
> >>
> >>Is Jespan the Low German variant of Gespan?
> >
> >It was a question. I have no attestation of it.
>
> Jespan is unknown to me. But I'd expect Germans north of Saxony,
> Luzatia, Silezia (e.g. in Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, Pommern)
> to pronounce Gespan Jespan, due to their Low German subdialects.
> But I can't tell 'janz jewiss', only 'jut möchlich'.
>
> >I was hypothesizing that Gespan was a Hochdeutsch
> >hyper-correction (j- -> g-) of a hypothetical jespan <- ispan,
> >cf Wexler, p. 44
>
> Hm, I see. Unfortunately, I don't know the exact area for such
> hypercorrect things (j > g); I only know of one region, namely
> northern Rhineland and south-western Westphalia. There this kind
> of hypercorrections are highly typical (even prominent people,
> whom one sees almost on TV daily can't control this mistake,
> e.g. Franz Müntefering; e.g. "getz" = "jetzt").

Well, weren't we talking about Westphalia?

> But theoretically, it could be in the relevant German-Slavic
> "interface": Berlin, Brandenburg, Vorpommern. (Unfortunately
> for the hypothesis, Saxony, Bohemia, Silezia don't fit, since
> German dialects there don't have the feature [g] > [j] in order
> to for people to be tempted to a hypercorrect revert [j] > [g].)

Make the Westphalia the place of origin for 'Gespan' then.

> I guess Wexler exaggerates a lot.

That's not my impression.

> Does he really deem Yiddish a Slavic language with German
> vocabulary?

That would be an exaggeration. But he seems to assume as necessary a Judeo-Slavic spoken by Jews after they spoke Greek and before they spoke a German dialect, leaving Greek and Slavic substrates in Yiddish, since he is not aware that a Germanic language might have survived in the Przeworsk culture area until the 5th century CE. In my scenario Wechsler's Slavic substrate might only have been an adstrate.

> >Both words undeniably have original j-; the g- must have come
> >about by substition, eg by hypercorrection.
>
> These substitutions or ... difficulties [j]<>[g] seem to me as
> being typical of Low Germand and of Germanic idioms to the
> north (partially English too: yellow < gel-/gal-; satem zel-),
> and I do'nt know to what extent Slavic, and ... Greek. AFAIK,
> Yiddish (as any South-German dialect) doesn't have this
> dichotomy.

Cf.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61985
and eg
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62983

> >>language was Slavic. (And both had/have Scythian/Iranian
> >>substrates or adstrates.
>
> That might have left zhupan (zhoopan) and Schöffe. :)
>
>
> > Because that's where 'feme' comes from
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67254
>
> "Belege zu Femegerichten finden sich vor allem im späten
> Mittelalter (14. und 15. Jahrhundert) im niederdeutschen
> Sprachgebiet. Einzelne weitere Belege gibt es aus den
> angrenzenden Jahrhunderten (13. und 16. Jahrhundert),
> vereinzelt bis 18. Jahrhundert, außerdem aus einigen
> mitteldeutschen Gebieten wie der Oberlausitz und Schlesien."
>
> So, the spreading of the Femegericht happened at the same time
> in east German provinces as well, exactly where "Suppan/Saupe"
> was alive and kickin'. It didn't stay put and isolated in the
> Rhein-Ruhr area expecting the... Altaic Arian chupan to be
> conveyed by the former underlings of the Avars, i.e. the Slavic
> population, as zhoopan.

We don't know the age of the Fehmgerichte.

> > But Schöffe is a legal institution. You don't introduce new legal
> > concepts unless you have to.
>
> Or if the ... tongue of the relevant population prefers one
> term or another; some times out of a whim, some times because
> the "muscle" of one populace is stronger than the one of an
> other part of the population; sometimes because of a... fade,
> because it's "hip, hype & en vogue" etc. But one has to take
> into consideration what Schöppe/Saupe were in the oldest
> medieval times: as we are shown, they were rather petty
> assistants to the main representative (in villages) of some
> gentry aristocrat or a higher nobleman. And it seems that
> the judicative attributions/functions were a bit later on,
> esp. in the German-speaking regions, whereas in Slavic-speaking
> regions zhupan seems to have gotten high positions within
> aristocracy. Compared to the Slavic world, in Germany Schuppan
> > Schöffe "shrinked" to a mere "justice of peace" and then an
> assistant helping the real judge.

Yup. Hilfspolizei.
As I was saying, the former lords of Slavic lands became collaborators.

> >Why introduce a fly-by-night kangaroo court with terminology
> >used on the Slavic mark into Westphalia of all places?
>
> Only Schöffe, not all terminology. By the same token, why
> introduce such words as Quark, Grenze, Peitsche, Petschaft,
> Schabracke, Schmetten, Powidel, Bulwe?

Wörter und Sachen. You get the new thing, you get its name too. But why introduce terminology used on the Slavic mark into Westphalia of all places?

> >Yes, that is interesting. The colonizing Germans force the
> >former lords of the land into submission and collaboration.
>
> Not only colonizing, but also... Germanisation of big chunks
> of Slavic-speaking populations, incl. aristocracy (which even
> today, here and there, has Slavic onomastics, -owski, -itzki,
> and the like, as well as Slavic 1st names). As for second
> names of the rest of the population esp. in all eastern
> German provinces they comprise whole lotta Slavic names that
> are more or less Germanised. One of the most famous is...
> Porsche (along with Borsch(k)e, Borschel < Borislav). And
> Boris (if I haven't got it wrong) is an Asian bars/pars
> "leo_pard_".

That's common knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podebusk



Torsten