Saupe < župan (Re: Schöffe I)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgsoo1" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:

>
> >You'd have to argue that *smei- = *smeu-
>
> At least in modern German: High German -eu-/-äu- = South German
> -ei-/-ai- (e.g. Feuer, Häuser, Streu, neu, Leute, teuer, heuer
> v. Feier, Heiser (cf. Sennheiser), Strei (cf. Streisand), nei,
> Leit, teier, heier...)

Yes, but I was talking about PIE.

>
> >Grimm doesn't know 'Saupe'. Do you have a reference?
>
> Eberhard Isenmann,
> _Gelehrte Juristen und das Prozessgeschehen in Deutschland im 15.
> Jahrhundert_, in:
> Franz-Josef Arlinghaus (& al.),
> _Praxis der Gerichtsbarkeit in europäischen Städten des
> Spätmittelalters_, (Klostermann), Frankfurt, 2006
> (p. 307, footnote # 11)
>
> * *
>
> Die "Gerichtsschöppen" auf Dörfern so gut wie ausnahmslos naturgemäß
> Bauern, saßen beim Jahrgericht im Orte eines Dingstuhls "in der
> Bank" und halfen das Recht finden. Sie wurden im allgemeinen vom
> Lehnsherrn auf Zeit ernannt und ebenso wie der Richter durch
> feierlichen Eid verpflichtet, weswegen sie auch als "geschworene
> Schöppen" Erwähnung finden. Die Eidesformel ist uns in zahlreichen
> Beispielen erhalten.
> Auf den Landgerichten saßen "Landschöppen" oder "Amtslandschöppen",
> die in den Niederschriften des Amts Leisnig

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisnig

> z.B. von den Gemeindeschöppen wohl unterschieden werden19.
>
> Im Amt Rochlitz war

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochlitz

> das Amt der Landschöppen an den Besitz bestimmter Güter, der
> "Amtslandschöppengüter" oder "Saupengüter" gebunden, Aber diese
> 16 "Saupen", die sich auf mehrere Dörfer verteilten, dabei aber
> eine Art Gemeinde mit ihren eigenen "Saupenrichter" für sich
> bildeten, ist von Pfau, Rochlitz, in lesenswerten Abhandlungen
> eingehend berichtet worden. - Im Bereiche der Herrschaft Gnandstein

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnandstein

> kommt die Bezeichnung "Testamentsherr" vor, deren genaue Bedeutung
> noch der Erklärung bedarf. - 1718 wird Martin Ehrlich d.J.
> in Wendishain als Land-Accis-Einnehmer verpflichtet20. 1693 legen
> mehrere Bauern des Amts Leisnig, darunter Martin Ehrlich aus
> Wendishain, den Eid eines Fleischsteuereinnehmers ab21.
>
> http://www.amf-verein.de/leistungen/c7-7_lange.html
>
> * *
>
> "Saupe: wendische Bezeichnung" = Landrichter
>
> "In Schönerstädt

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreis_Fl%C3%B6ha

> aber war noch ein besonderer Richter
> und eben daselbst, wie auch Langenau zwei Saupen
> (wendische Bezeichnung für Landrichter), weil sie
> ihr besonderes Gericht hatten."
>
> http://tinyurl.com/SaupeWendisch
>
> * *

All examples from Saxony, ie. old Czech lands. Here's another, I think
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zschopau
1286 Schapa
or?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zschopau_(Fluss)

> MEYERS LEXIKON:
>
> Saupe
> Saupe, Sauppe, Familiennamenforschung:
> 1) Amtsname zu mittelhochdeutsch s…«pan»
> »slawischer Edelmann, Fürst; Verwalter eines Gutes«,
> einem Lehnwort slawischer Herkunft,
> vgl. auch Schuppan.
> 2) bei süddeutscher Herkunft Wohnstättenname
> zu schwäbisch Soppe, Saupe »Sumpfboden«. In...
>
> http://www.enzyklo.de/Begriff/Saupe

Interesting that Meyer needs to split the word into two in order to maintain its Slavic provenance and also account for its presence in areas with no known Slavic settlement.

>
> * *
>
> Dateiformat: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
> župa, saupe, sup,'Cnviravia (Porphyrogen),
> supania, dann župan, jopan, jupan
> gegeniiber, ... man aber die Form
> supan, župan als urspriinglich annehmen ...
> http://tinyurl.com/PrirodoslovniMuzejvLjubljan
>
> * *
>
> 26 ožu 2008 ... Tvrdnja da je župan dobio
> ime po župniku je potpuno netočna iz više ...
> takvih dokaza je i njemačka regionalna
> riječ Supe, pa Saupe i Supan, ...
> http:// ns1.vjesnik.com/Pdf/2008%5C03%5C25%5C20A20.PDF
>
> * *
>
> toponímia alemã
> ... nome *Cětici nos é transmitido o fundador
> ou aldeão mais velho (em sorábio župan,
> documentado como Supan, compare com o
> actual apelido de família Saupe! ...
> http://deutscheortsnamen.blogspot.com/
>
> >Polish 'pan'
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_honorifics
>
> That's something else (and probably a variant of the Croatian -
> Avar - Iranian ban. Zhupan has to do with the Slavic territory
> and administration called zhupa.

Here you are assuming a Slavic provenance of 'župan', but it might be a loan there too.

Background:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/2888
Salt?? (my *Å¡aN- also has to do with salt)
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65895
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65995
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/18991
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21854
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/19216

> >Sez you.
>
> My assumption Slav. zhupa > Schöffe is at least as (if not
> even more) valid as your sclavinus assumption, esp. because it
> has left important traces (ranks, functions, anthroponyms,
> toponyms) in all eastern provinces of the Frankish & German
> empires (along with the re-translated word Gespan > Gespanschaft)
> as well as throughout Eastern Europe, incl. in Hungarian (ispán)
> and Romanian (in two forms: jupan and jupân with several
> meanings).

Those two proposals are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

>
> OTOH, it is a fact that Saupe, an attested
> synonym of Schöppe & Schöffe, is a "Vendic" word: < zhupan "head
> of a zhupa" (administrative and judicial head of a province).

No, what we have attested is that Saupe (<- *zūpa?) is a loan from Slavic. Its provenance in Slavic is unknown.

>
> Schaffen, schöpfen, sclavinus and the rest mentioned in your
> lists are also interesting, some of them even tempting, but...
>
>
> >I suspect you of deliberately trying to cause confusion here.
>
> Falsche Verdächtigung ist auch eine Strafe nach'm Strafgesetzbuch. :)

Well, sue me. ;-)

> >>Gespanschaft: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gespanschaft
> >
> >Through 'Jespan'?
>
> Is Jespan the Low German variant of Gespan?

It was a question. I have no attestation of it.

> Anyway, a Gespan
> was the German lexical adaptation of the Slavic župan and
> of the Hungarian equivalent ispan [ishpan].

I was hypothesizing that Gespan was a Hochdeutsch hyper-correction (j- -> g-) of a hypothetical jespan <- ispan, cf
Wexler, p. 44
'Future research should seek to uncover additional Greek phrases and terms [in Eastern Slavic] where a Jewish intermediary might be postulated. The possibility that Hellenized Jews and Greeks created a peripheral zone of Balkan phraseological features in Central and Eastern Europe would be of great interest to Balkan areal linguistics (on central and peripheral members of the Balkan Sprachbund, see H. Birnbaum 1965:20, 23). Another example of Jewish-Greek contact may be the transmission by Yiddish of the Hebrew term for "Greece" to German and Ukrainian slang, see Yiddish jovn "Greece (as a Jewish subculture area < He jāvān "Greece" - vs. grixnland "Greece"); Russian soldier" (by association of the two Orthodox countries) > (?) G joner (1510), jauner (1722), Gauner (1687) "player; professional swindler, thief (a reference to the popular view that Greeks were clever card players?)", Gaunersprache "thieves' talk" (187 Wolf 1956, #1669). ... On a Yiddish origin for Uk slg ívan "Red Army soldier, Russian" (World War II), see Horbač 1963a:21. Yiddish jovn "Russian soldier" finds a parallel in Trakai Karaite javan "soldier" (vs. Halyč Karaite "Greek, Russian, Orthodox"). If Karaite is not influenced by Yiddish (I lack information from Crimean Karaite), then the Yiddish-Karaite meaning "soldier" may ultimately derive from contact with a colloquial (Judeo-)Greek source.'
note the remark on Gauner (the inclusion of the rest is for interesting supplementary information suggesting that at one time the ancestors of both Yiddish and Karaite speakers lived in an area where the executive power, ie that which commanded the army, spoke Greek)

and

de Vries
'gyðingr m. 'Jude', vgl. júði.'

Both words undeniably have original j-; the g- must have come about by substitin, eg by hypercorrection.

> >Hungarian would be a case like Bulgarian where the bottom
> >language ended on top.
>
> Indeed. But with the mentioning that, unlike in the case of
> Bulgarians, the Turkic top language also had had an Uralic
> (perhaps Ugrian) substrate, while the Bulgarian bottom
> language was Slavic. (And both had/have Scythian/Iranian
> substrates or adstrates. Hungarian even such important words
> as "God, devil, troll, dragon, lady, gold, silver, sword,
> bridge, stallion, bow, arrow" etc.)
>
> >BTW, I suppose you realize that if you want to join Schöffe
> >and župan you would have to posit the existence of some ethnic
> >group present in both the Slavic lands and in Westphalia
> >(both words denote a person of power, so it's difficult to
> >imagine how it would spread without a taking over of power),
> >and that can't have been Slavic. I'm curious as to how you
> >would avoid positing an invasion from the east to account for
> >that.
>
> Why Westphalia?

Because that's where 'feme' comes from
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67254

> Methinks Austria ("Caranthania"), Bohemia,
> virtually the entire territory of former "DDR", Silezia,
> Pommerania, Western Hungary (which was also a Slavic-German
> "interface" in a period of about 1,000 years prior to its
> inclusion into the Austrian empire's territory) sufficed in
> order to enable the entering of zhupan into the German
> vocabulary (as it was the case with words such as Peitsche,
> Grenze, Quark, Petschaft).

But Schöffe is a legal institution. You don't introduce new legal concepts unless you have to. Why introduce a fly-by-night kangaroo court with terminology used on the Slavic mark into Westphalia of all places?

> Slavic toponyms are extant even
> beyond these territories, e.g. Marktredwitz (Markt-Redwitz)
> in northern Bavaria and Lübeck (let alone such names as
> Berlin, Leipzig, Dresden, Lausitz, Chemnitz, Muskau). Also
> note the numerous occurring of last names such as Zuppan,
> Suppan, Tschuppan, Saupe etc.

Yes, yes. Wwe were talking about Westphalia.

> Hans Bahlow, Deutsches Namenlexikon, Suhrkamp Taschenbuch st 65
> says:
>
> "Saupe, Sauppe (ostd.-slaw.) = wend. Sûpan. Siehe dies! (Georg
> Saupe 1566 aus Cotta/Sachsen; Saupan 1524 Altenburg"
>
> and
>
> "Sup(p)an (slaw.-mhd.): "Bezirkvorsteher, Vogt, Gutsverwalter"
> (Sachsen, Österreich)."
>
> [note the semantic change as compared with Slavic zhupans,
> of which some, in some regions/countries even had the
> position/rank of a... count or of a duke!]

Yes, that is interesting. The colonizing Germans force the former lords of the land into submission and collaboration. But why in Westphalia?

BTW we might compare the abstract suffix -schaft, -schap, -ship here, presuming that it originated with titles of possessors of power (Grafschaft, Lordship) as a designation of the areas they ruled (cf. Herzogtum, kingdom etc, vs. Danish dommer "judge", dom "verdict")

> It goes on: "Thömel Supan 1365 Iglau."
>
> And: "Zupan siehe Supan!"
>
> Then: Zup(p)ke siehe Zoppke!" And: "Zoppke (Zuppke) ist ostdeutsch-
> slawisch". (He doesn't say whether these are diminutivals of Suppan,
> but, obviously, they might be.)
>

The unusual anlaut of Zschopau might be a clue that the anlaut of the *skep- word might not have been simply sk- or Å¡-.



Torsten