From: Torsten
Message: 67313
Date: 2011-04-05
>More like 'vox Georgii, vox Dei' ;-)
> >You don't examine in order to get a conclusion every scoopful of
> >water you bail out of you boat or scoop out of your barrel or ever
> >scapulaful of half-rotten wood you scapula out of your logboat.
>
> Thus is the German language, since "vox populi, vox Dei".
> The Diutisk folk has opted for that, so there's nothing we can
> do about it.
> >It is a singularly unhelpful metaphor.I think you mean George doesn't.
>
> Jedes Volk schöpft aus dem Vollen nach Gutdünken. I.e., peoples
> never ask linguists whenever they invent vocabulary and idiomatic
> phrases.
> >I think de Vries goes overboard here, anyway this does demonstrateYou'd have to explain the -r.
> >that the root underlying <smith> does not in itself imply that the
> >material worked on is a metal, actually the facts seem to point at
> >something more slushy, like plaster.
>
> schmieren < ahd. smirwen
> Schmer (e.g. in Schmerbauch) < ahd. smero "Fett", zu idg. *smer-
> "Fett"
> schmeiÃen < mhd. smizen "streichen, schmieren; schlagen" < ahd.Yes, yes.
> (bi)smizan "beflecken", engl. smite "schlagen", got. bismeitan
> "bestreichen", gasmeitan "aufstreichen", Grundbedeutung "streichen",
> zu idg. *smeid-; zu *sme(i) "schmieren, drüberstreichen", vermutl.
> verwandt mit Schminke, schmeicheln.
> [NB streichen also means "to hit, strike", Streich "hit, blow,You'd have to argue that *smei- = *smeu-
> thrust; e.g. Schwertstreich; Staatstreich "coup d'êtat".)
> Schmied < ahd. smid, got. aiza-smiDa "Erzschmied", zu idg. *smei-,
> *sm&i, *smi- "schnitzen"
>
> >(cf. also Da.
> >smitte n. "contagion",
> >smitte v. "infect",
> >smitsom "contagious",
> >besmitte "desecrate";
>
> cf. German beschmutzen
> (BTW, in Suebian and Alemanian German, Schmutz also meansNothing says it couldn't be older. As a secret court the Fehmgericht would not be mentioned in the Sachsenspiegel.
> "fat, grease" = Fett, Schmer, Schmalz)
>
> >Only in the sense that he is a divider, separating the good from
> >the bad, cf. <schicht> "layer", and so is a Schöpfer "creator";
> >he takes out what is not supposed to be there. They discriminate
> >bad/unneeded/unwanted from good/needed/wanted.
>
> It seems that only the verb (ver)schaffen pushes the judge
> into the vicinity of the schaff-/scheff-/schöpf-/schopp-/schupp-
> family. Otherwise, his main deeds are concentrated in the
> verb richten (from the rect- family, cf. correct, rectitude,
> direct); also the name of his profession: Richter (deverbal).
> Thus, only the Schöffe remains übrig.
>
> >But the Freischöffe of the
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehmic_court
> >could.
>
> Oh, das Femegericht. But it is quite "recent" (the oldest
> attestation: the 13th century).
> Indeed, the Schöffen justices hadAnd that makes him a representative of something extra-judicial.
> more power. But even today, a Schöffe is a so-called "Laienrichter".
> AFA the variants of the word are concerned, take into considerationGrimm doesn't know 'Saupe'. Do you have a reference?
> the older forms: Schöppe and Saupe (the latter esp. in East
> Germany).
>
> Dorfschöppe
> Landschöppe
> Amtslandschöppe
> geschworener Schöppe
> Saupe
> Saupenrichter
> >The Freischöffe is a free agent, and I suspect his subordinationThe Freischöffen were a different thing.
> >is a later thing.
>
> That's correct. But even in much earlier (medieval) times, the
> village Schöffe = Schöppe, was an assistant/councilor/counsel
> assisting the... Dorfschulze (DorfschultheiÃ). Usually, a
> peasant invested by the liege lord of the area.
> [I'd rather investigate whether there is the possibility forPolish 'pan'
> Schöppe/Saupe/Schöffe to have been influenced or to have
> been borrowed from a neighboring Slavic language in the East,
> župan. In East Germany there are many people with last names
> derived from this Slavic word: Suppan, Zschuppan, Zuppan,
> and (I assume) Zschöppe, Tschöppe etc.]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%c3%85%c2%bdupan
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%c3%85%c2%bdupa
>
> The community called župa comprised several villages in the
> incipient medieval times. In certain political environments and
> epochs and geographical areas, a zhupan had indeed the power
> and prerogatives of a judge! And both the Frankish empire and
> the German empire neighbored as well as "agglutinated" areas
> where this notion/rank zhupan was ubiquitous (so much so that
> in certain areas of German native-speakers, i.e. East-Germany
> and Austria, there are many people having last names derived
> from the Slavic Zhupan). NB: in German there is no sound
> for ž, so it is pronounced voiceless "sch" (Schupan, Schuppan).
> (cf. pleasure, measure pronounced by German-speakers
> Plescher, Mescher)
> >Yup. 'Schichten'.Sez you.
>
> Your assumption schichten must be a Sackgasse, a false assumption.
> There ain't no hint to connect Schöppe/Saupe/Schöffe with it.
> The origin of Schöffe must be different (either schöpfen +
> schaffen or something else).
> >>E.g. in everyday's idiomatic usage: "Indem er auf diese WeiseI can't see how that is relevant then.
> >>Recht verschafft, erschafft er eine neue Situation: Durch diesen
> >>Präzedenzfall können nunmehr die Freischaffenden von dieser
> >>Steuer befreit werden. Das schafft der Richter, ohne Gesetzes-
> >>schöpfer zu sein. Er schöpft aber aus dem Vollen. Die Anwälte
> >>der Gegenseite behaupten trotzdem, dass die Rechtsmittel noch
> >>nicht ausgeschöpft seien. Die Kläger wollten sich nicht äuÃern,
> >>sie sagten lediglich, sie gingen nach Hause, sie seien schon
> >>erschöpft".
> >
> > Yes. And? Most of those were everyday uses.
>
> The same words embedded in different semantic and flexionary
> contexts have slightly or completely different meanings. These
> everyday's lingo examples show how... schöpferisch (creative)
> one can get by using esp. schöpfen and nouns, adj., adv. based
> on schöpf-.
>
> This is important, since your basic scepticism refers to the
> idea schöpfen, because you rather expect something like
> "sculpting, cutting (off), excavating" to have been the initial
> thought.
> >>Especially in the case of szép (andRédei's
> >>other [Sep-] Uralic words that also mean "beautiful, pretty").
> >
> >None of them occur in his three examples.
>
> In your
> initial list with Uralic and Turkic words, there wereYou are changing the subject. We were talking about Rédei's three examples.
> some Uralic examples of <shepa> with the same meaning ("beautiful")
> as in Hungarian. Esp. in Chuvash. Whereupon I posted the info
> with the Bashkir tribes Yurmatu and Yeney.
> >>It is relevant, since your initial idea revolves around theYour whole confused jumble of comments of comments of your misunderstanding of Rédei's three illustrative examples of a semantic transition "skilled" -> "master, smith".
> >>meanings "wright, smith = creator", while you reject, for German,
> >>the other idea "Wasser schöpfen".
> >
> >Which is irrelevant.
>
> What is irrelevant?
> The connection smith<->Schöffe (Laienrichter)?How is that relevant to Rédei's examples?
> Today, you even pointed out that a smith, initially, also used
> wood, not only metals.
> >The reason that passage is there is that I cited the entireI don't have a final conclusion. I was trying to point out that *Åeppä "skilled; artisan" seemed to match the *skep- "create" etc we discussed.
> >entry for *Åeppä "geschickt" in UEW. I cited it for no other
> >reason.
>
> And what's the final conclusion?
> Is this *sheppa father/mother to Uralic shepa/szép "beautiful"?*Åeppä "geschickt" is Rédei's reconstruction in UEW for Proto-Finno-Ugric for the individual FU words mentioned in the entry, as you very well know. I suspect you of deliberately trying to cause confusion here.
> >The Uralic people was a forest people, and for such a peopleI was trying to find an explanation for why you think the Uralics were not a forest people.
> >forest skills are important. The Hungarians did of course
> >behave more Turkic-/Iranian-like.
>
> It's not matter of behavioral, but of the origin of the vocabulary.
> Indeed, Hungarian has a certain important percentage of mainThrough 'Jespan'?
> words of Iranian (incl. Alanian) and North-Turkic origin, along
> with the Uralic part and the Slavic part of the old vocabulary.
> For example the above mentioned zhupan also existed up to the
> 18th century, or so, in kingdom Hungary as well: adapted as
> ispán ['iSpa:n] "chief of a county", in Hung. ispánság was the
> equivalent of the comitatus. Translated into german: Gespan and
> Gespanschaft: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gespanschaft
> But the words for wood, forest and the like sound completelyHungarian would be a case like Bulgarian where the bottom language ended on top. Seems they forgot to bring the carpenters from the forest.
> different although many of them are also Uralic (e.g. fa
> "wood (lignum)" and "tree"). Whereas some of the terms referring
> to working something in wood, e.g. carpenter, are not always
> Uralic. Ãcs [a:tS] "carpenter" seems to be Turkic, aÄaç [a-atS]
> "tree".