Re: [tied] Re: Schöffe I

>
> >thus 'Recht schöpfen' "scoop the law", which does not make a
> >lot of sense, but the Germans have tried to do it anyway.
>
> Why shouldn't it make a lot of sense?

Yes it should, but it doesn't.

> After all, the image/idea
> is "to take something/a part from a larger quantity and to
> examine it in order to get a conclusion".

You don't examine in order to get a conclusion every scoopful of water you bail out of you boat or scoop out of your barrel or ever scapulaful of half-rotten wood you scapula out of your logboat.

> It doesn't matter
> whether you "separate" or "scratch out" or "scoop" or "excavate"
> or <etc>, i.e. whether you use the appropriate tool/vessel for
> each of such "exploratory"+"extractive" actions.

That part is true. It is the second part of the supposed image match that stinks. It is a singularly unhelpful metaphor.

***R Torsten is right in his intuition, as far as English is concerned --"scooping the law" sounds unethical or criminal. "To scoop someone" means to beat someone to the punch and what is implied in this metaphor to an English speaker  is --"to beat a rap, to circumvent the law." German, like law, is often quizzical for English speakers. Perhaps that why in English we call lawyers "shysters" i.e. "scheisters".

> In German, iurisprudentia is also called _Rechtsfindung_, i.e.
> "*finding* of justice";

On the bottom of the barrel?

> once, the judge and the Schöffen have
> found it, the verdict is issued: "Recht wird gesprochen"
> (Rechtsprechung is also iurisprudentia).

'is spoken', yes; irrelevant.

> Other peoples/languages have resorted to other images/metaphors
> in order to express this pursuit of "finding/fathoming";

True.

> Germans have made use of schöpfen (in the "scooping" sense).

Sez you and Grimm.

> What's wrong with it?

See above.

> OTOH, where is (in German and Uralic idioms)
> the nexus as far as the blacksmith's work is concerned?

The <smith> is not ab initio a metal worker, cf eg

****R 

see contemporary wordsmith, tunesmith --and in Cincinnati, there is a company called Dixsmith, I tremble to imagine what they're in to.

wood-smith:
http://www.snl.no/snekker "carpenter"
'snekker, trevaresnekker eller møbelsnekker
... fra 1500-tallet. Før den tid var tresmiðr både tømmermann (husasmiðr) og kistemaker (kistasmiðr), som i dag tilsvarer møbelsnekker.'

Estonian kingisepp "shoemaker"

(OT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Kingissepp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingisepp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuressaare
)

and
de Vries
'smíð f. "kunstfertige arbeit",
nisl. fär. smíð, aschw. smidhe "Schmiedearbeit"
(run. schw. smiþa g.pl. Gursten 9 Jht, v Friesen NB 2, 1914, 7). -
ahd. smīda "gerat, geschmeide". -
Zu smíða schw. V. "schmieden, machen",
nisl fär. smíða, nnorw. schw. smida, nda. smede. -
Daneben got. gasmiþon, ae. smiðian, as. ahd. smithōn. -
smíði n. "werk, arbeit", nisl. fär. smiði. -
as. smīdi, mnd. smīde, ahd. gismīdi "schmiedearbeit, geschmeide". -
smiðja f. "schmiede",
nisl. fär. smiðja, nnorw. smidja, smia, nschw. smedja, nda. smedje. ->
ne. smithy, dial. schott. smiddy
(Eckhardt, Herrigs Arch. 184, 1944, 80), >
shetl. smi, >
lpN. smiðjo (Qvigstad 305). -
ae. smiððe, afr. smithe, mnd. mnl. smede, ahd smidda, smitta. -
Zu smiðr m "schmied, handwerker, künstler",
nisl. fär smiður, nnorw. smid, nschw. dä. smed. ->
lpN. smiðða. -
got. smiþa, ae. smið, afr. as. smith, ahd. smid "schmied"
Eine t-erw. zu einer idg. wzl *(s)me:i- (IEW 968), vgl.
gr. σμίλη "schnitzmesser", σμινύη "hacke". -
Vgl. weiter unter smár und für die bed. gruppe meiðr.'

Vennemann suggests a connection with
'smeittr adj. "emailliert", zu nnorw. smeita "schlagen". -
ahd. bismeizen "beschmieren",
ae. smæte "rein, geläutert".
Zu
got. bismeitan "bestreichen",
ae. smītan "beschmutzen",
afr. smīta, mnd. mnl. smīten "schmeissen",
ahd. smīzan "beschmieren". -
av. mae:d- "niederwerfen". -
vgl. smár und zur bed.gruppe meiðr.'

As you might know, plaster is *thrown* (geschmissen) onto surfaces, not smeared (which BTW is a problem with ceilings).

As for meiðr:
'meiðr m. 'baum'
...
Die wortgruppe *mei hat nach Pokorny mehrere bedeutungen, weshalb er 6 verschiedene wurzeln aufstellt. Man kann sie aber grösstenteils vereinigen, wenn man vom fachwerkbau ausgeht. Der balken ist zum hausgerüst notwendig, deshalb die wörter meiðr und -mæri; er muss aber behauen werden (vgl. meita). Dazu gehört weiter mit mobilem s- auch smiðr. Das flechtwerk deutet die wzl *mei 4 an, die im germ. nicht vertreten ist; nur ist smeitir anzuführen als wort für das lehmschmieren. Beachtet man den häufigen Übergang der bed. "flechtzaun" zu "mannring", so lassen sich Wörter für "wechsel, tausch, leistung" leicht begreifen; neben lat. mūnus "leistung, amt, geschenk" steht germ. *gamaini "gemeinsam, gemein"; aus dem begriff des "tausches" entstehen die von "täuschung" und "betrug" (vgl. meinn). Schliesslich kann man das zermürben des lehmes in der wortgruppe für "klein" zurückfinden; es lassen sich dann minni, minnr anreihen. -
Die lehmbeschmierung wird von der idg. *meu ausgedrückt (vgl. má 2 und mjúkr); es stehen also neben einander *mei und *meu, ganz wie auch *lei (vgl. liðr) und *leu (vgl. ló) und *rei (vgl. rein) und *reu (vgl. rýja).'

I think de Vries goes overboard here, anyway this does demonstrate that the root underlying <smith> does not in itself imply that the material worked on is a metal, actually the facts seem to point at something more slushy, like plaster.

(cf. also Da.
smitte n. "contagion",
smitte v. "infect",
smitsom "contagious",
besmitte "desecrate";
seems there was some understanding that sneezing might be a route of contagion)

> Indeed,
> he also makes all kind of things out of a piece of metal, as
> if those things would have been "hidden" therein and he "cuts"
> them out.

Indeed.

> On top of that, a smith (or a sculptor) is also a
> Schöpfer & Schaffer/Schaffender in the sense of "creator",
> indeed.

True that.

> But what kind of "creator" might be a judge?

Only in the sense that he is a divider, separating the good from the bad, cf. <schicht> "layer", and so is a Schöpfer "creator"; he takes out what is not supposed to be there. They discriminate bad/unneeded/unwanted from good/needed/wanted.

> S/he only applies laws somebody else has invented/voted&adopted.

Like the artisan works with tools someone else may have created.

> Let alone the Schöffe, who, without a judge to lead the procedure,
> can't do anything but twiddle thumbs.

But the Freischöffe of the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehmic_court
could.

> >Grimm's opinion.
>
> Might be warranted.
>

Or not, as the case may be.

> >>(2) the German words that led to the derivate Schöffe ("member of
> >>the jury")
> >
> >Not the original sense.
>
> The original senses might have been - either Schöpfer in the
> sense of "someone who takes a quantity of liquid or another
> matter from A to put/pour/discard it in B"; or in the sense of
> "creator, wright (who cuts out, carves, sculpts, models etc.)".

Well, I think it's someone who cleans out.

> So what? In the frame of a jury, in a court, a Schöffe is no
> "creator", and, as someone who "takes x from A to B" s/he
> isn't the main agent, but only sort of an assistant.

The Freischöffe is a free agent, and I suspect his subordination is a later thing.

> >>already had in earlier periods the additional meaning...
> >>... "ordnen" and "anordnen"!
> >
> >Which is what a judge does, not a juror.
>
> Of course. But pay heed to "ordnen": first "ordnen," (which
> means "einordnen", mentally and judicially) and only after that
> "anordnen". ("Anordnen" without judgment/thinking <- einordnen
> isn't possible.)

Yup. 'Schichten'.

> >>An order issued by the court also
> >>means "Recht verschaffen, Recht sprechen" (i.e. Jurisprudenz).
> >
> >If that had been the derivation, he would have been called
> >something like *Rechtsschöffe. He wasn't, Grimm does not know
> >such a word.
>
> I only mentioned the further derivations and usage to show that
> the word (ver)schaffen (from the same etymologic family) is also
> used in the legal and procedural context - here, in the sense of
> "procure + establish/fix" a certain order (according to laws).
> I.e., the initial meaning "create" changed to "procure, obtain,
> set up".

But in those uses they are used as their everyday sense, not in a specific legal sense, so those uses prove nothing.

> E.g. in everyday's idiomatic usage: "Indem er auf diese Weise
> Recht verschafft, erschafft er eine neue Situation: Durch diesen
> Präzedenzfall können nunmehr die Freischaffenden von dieser
> Steuer befreit werden. Das schafft der Richter, ohne Gesetzes-
> schöpfer zu sein. Er schöpft aber aus dem Vollen. Die Anwälte
> der Gegenseite behaupten trotzdem, dass die Rechtsmittel noch
> nicht ausgeschöpft seien. Die Kläger wollten sich nicht äußern,
> sie sagten lediglich, sie gingen nach Hause, sie seien schon
> erschöpft".

Yes. And? Most of those were everyday uses.

> If all the relevant words once (1,500-2,000 years ago) had
> meanings such as "scab, carve, scoop", in the German language
> of more recent times only the main ideas "to scoop" and "to
> create" have been preserved (to a certain extent).

Obviously.

> >>>ung. szép 'schön, (dial.) kellemes, kedvezö (SzamSz.), jó;
> >>>angenehm, günstig gut, (dial.) derék, nagy, hatalmas;
> >>>stattlich, groß, mächtig' (SzamSz., SzegSz.).
> >
> >>["from "jó, angenehm to mächtig", the equivalents are
> >>exaggerations: [...]
> >
> >The original sense is "schön", so irrelevant.
>
> Without this explanation you wouldn't know which parts of the
> entry are relevant. I added the explanation to help you,
> so that you'll be spared possible speculations concerning
> kellemes (pleasant), jó (good/well), angenehm, günstig gut,
> nagy+hatalmas (big/large, huge), stattlich, groß, mächtig.
> Szép simply means "beautiful; pretty; handsome; nice", i.e.
> simply means "schön"; "beau, belle".
>
> >[Rédei9 is not implying derivational relationship with Finno-Ugric
> >*śeppä "geschickt" for any of the words he uses in the examples.
>
> Semantically, he does.

That sentence makes no sense.

> Especially in the case of szép (and
> other [Sep-] Uralic words that also mean "beautiful, pretty").

None of them occur in his three examples.

> >>>Mansi (Ahlqv.) mašter "master" ~ "gewandt",
> >>>Khanty (547) DN máśtar "master" ~ "skilled in something"
> >>
> >>These are connected with Meister, master, magister; I doubt that
> >>they are old Uralic words. Hungarian also has similar words:
> >>mester ['maeStaer] "Meister" & mesteséges "masterful, skilful;
> >>meisterhaft; elaborate".
> >
> >Irrelevant. See above.
>
> It is relevant, since your initial idea revolves around the
> meanings "wright, smith = creator", while you reject, for German,
> the other idea "Wasser schöpfen".

Which is irrelevant.

> So, of course you also cited
> the Khanty and Mansi words mashter and mashtar (since any creator
> is a... meshter/Meister/magister).

The reason that passage is there is that I cited the entire entry for *śeppä "geschickt" in UEW. I cited it for no other reason.

> >>>The derivation of the Hungarian word from
> >>>Chuvash šep "beautiful" (Róna-Tas: NytudÉrt. 58 : 174)
> >>>is improbable, since the Chuvash word is found only in a
> >>>small area.
> > [...]
> >I agree with you here. It seems like Rédei is trying to make his
> >Finno-Ugric *śeppä "geschickt" an exclusively FU word; I think
> >it is a Wanderwort for someone who takes apart and cleans, ie.
> >a woodsman, 'Förster'
>
> Seemingly, nobody knows whether Hungarian szép, Chavash shep
> & al. Uralic equivalents are remnants of *śeppä or whether they
> are derivates of a Wanderwort "Förster".

Obviously nobody *knows* anything in historical linguistics. It's all conjecture of various degrees of certainty.

> (It'd be a little weird
> for such an important word as szép to have had an initial meaning
> woodsman, though. And not merely because Hungarian has for "tree,
> wood" and "forest" such different words: fa & erdö.)

The Uralic people was a forest people, and for such a people forest skills are important. The Hungarians did of course behave more Turkic-/Iranian-like.

Torsten