Re: Schöffe I

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "t0lgsoo1" <guestuser.0x9357@...> wrote:

>
> >>of the judge:
> >>'dieser sinn braucht nicht der steine unter den alten linden, um
> >>gutes recht zu schöpfen.' Immermann Münchh. 4, 134.
> >>meanwhile this sense has become generally mostly forgotten and
> >><schöpfen> in this connection is thus mostly understood as
> >>"haurire", so the 'recht schöpfen' means "take, fetch 'recht' (the
> >>law, what's right) from somewhere" and is now no more said of the
> >>legislator and rechtsprecher "law speaker", but of the plaintiff
>
> This figurative schöpfen's kinship: Engl. scoop, MDutch schope,
> OHG skepfen. Also Schaufel (engl. shovel), Schippe, Schaub;

Grimm's opinion.

>
> Idea: to take/gather a liquid; a powder or gravel-like quantitiy.
>
> But:


> _schieben_ < OHG scioban, goth (af)skiuban; PIE *skeubh- "werfen,
> schieben" (throw, push)

Cf <abschieben> "get rid of"

> OTOH:
> cf. _Schöpfkelle_ (ladle, scoop, dipper)
> cf. Schaff, Scheffel, Schoppen
> -------------------------------------------
> cf. _schöpfen_ (trans. vb.)
>
> (1)"mit einem Gefäß oder mit der hohlen Hand
> aufnehmen, heben" (Flüssigkeit);
> (2) Atem schöpfen "tief, bewusst atmen;
> (fig.) Hoffnung, Mut, Vertrauen schöpfen; <-----------
> (fig.) Verdacht schöpfen (to suspicionate)
> (fig.) Kraft schöpfen
> (3) (Jägersprache) das Wild schöpft "trinkt"
>
> < mhd. schepfen, scheffen < ahd. scephen, zu
> OHG scaph "Schaff, Gefäß", ursprünglich
> "Ausgehöhltes", zu idg. *(s)kebh-, (s)kabh-,
> (s)kap- "schaben"
>
> (ausschöpfen: complete, the entire quantity; fig.: use
> all possibilities, & erschöpfen // erschöpft "exhausted; very
> tired")
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> _Schöpfer_ "Gefäß zum Schöpfen, Schöpfkelle,
> Schöpfeimer, [Schöpflöffel; cf. Schöpfrad
> "Wasserrad mit Zellen"; Schöpfwerk "Vorrichtung
> zum mechanischen Heben von Wasser]
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> (das) _Schaff_ (oberdt.) "großes, offenes Holzgefäß,
> Zuber, Bottich, Waschfaß, Schrank < ahd. skaph,
> skaf "offenes Gefäß, Faß", zu idg. *skab-
> "schnitzen, schaben"; verwandt mit Schoppen,
> schaffen, Schuppe, schaben, Schaft
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> _Schaffel_ (österr.) kleines Schaff
>
> (der) _Scheffel_ "altes Hohlmaß, landschaftlich
> sehr verschiedener Größe: 23 - 223 L; altes
> Flächenmaß, so viel Boden, wie mman mit einem
> Scheffel voll Körner besäen kann; offenes
> Holzgefäß, Bottich [hence = Schaff]
> - etwas in Scheffeln einheimsen/erlangen/gewinnen
> "in großen Mengen"
> - es regnet wie mit Scheffeln "sehr stark" [cats
> and dogs]
> - er stellt sein Licht nicht unter den Scheffel
> "er bringt seine Fähigkeiten gern zur Geltung"
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> _scheffeln_ "mit dem Scheffel aufhäufen"; (heute fig.)
> "zusammenraffen, in großen Mengen erlangen, gewinnen"
> [to garner, gather, collect] Geld scheffeln
> das Getreide scheffelt "gibt viele Körner"
> < ahd. sceffil; zu ahd. scaf "Gefäß für Flüssigkeiten,
> Kornmaß"; zu idg. *skab- "schaben, schnitzen",
> verwandt mit Schaff, schaffen, -schaft, schöpfen
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> (der) _Schoppen_ "Flüssigkeitsmaß, etwa 1/2 L; (im
> Gastgewerbe) 1/4 L (Bier od. Wein); (lanschaftl.
> auch) Schuppen; (schweizerisch) Saugflasche
> < lothringisch chopenne < afrz. chopine < mnd.
> schope, mhd. schuofe "Schöpfkelle des Maurers und
> Brauers"; zu Schaff
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> (der) _Schaft_ < ahd. scaft "Lanzenschaft, Lanze;
> Stiel, Stab, Stange", ursprünglich "ein geglätteter,
> entrindeter Ast bzw. junger Baum"; zu: schaben.
>
> [NB participles: geschabt; geschafft; geschaffen;
> geschöpft; gescheffelt]
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> _schaben_ < ahd. scaban "kratzen, scharren, radieren",
> engl. shave "schaben", got. skaban "scheren", zu
> idg. *skab-, *skap-, *skabh- "schaben", verwandt u.a.
> mit Schaft, Schuppe, Schaff, schaffen, Schoppen
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> cf. neo-Greek skáfi; Rumanian scafä & cäu$
>
> cf. Lat. scabo, scabere "kratzen" (vgl. schaben)
> / scaber, scabra, scabrum / scabies / scabritia
> cf. Lat. ex/cavo, -are / cavus,-a,-um (*covus)
> cavatus "hohl"
>
> cf. Gr. koilos < *kofilos & kóoi, kófiloi
> cf. dt. hohl < ahd hol
>
> NB:
>
> Schäffler/Scheffler: South-German for Fassbinder, Fassküfer
> (Küfner, Kübler; Küpper [cooper!]), Böttcher
>
> >rättsskipning "the application of law by the courts"
>
> In German, this is in general "Recht sprechen" and "Rechtsprechung"
> (but Rechtsspruch "decision by a court" = gerichtliches Urteil), as
> well as "Rechtsfindung, Rechtspflege"

Not about <schöpfen>/<schaffen>, so irrelevant.

> >German <rechtschaffen> "righteous" etc
>
> And: sich oder jemandem sein Recht verschaffen

Straightforward application of <verschaffen>, so irrelevant.

> >is not the noun <reht>, but the adjective <reht> "right", used
> >adverbially, ie. "rightly"
>
> Not only this, but also in the sens of "quite" and "very, highly,
> utterly"! (recht herzlich, recht schönen Dank, recht gern, ich
> weiß nicht recht, du kommst gerade recht, recht gescheit, recht
> gut, recht hungrig)
>
> >thus skipa/schaffen and all its cognates in those expressions
> >should be understood as just one metaphorical step from its
> >original sense of "divide, split up; take out the bad stuff",
> >and doing that "rightly", ie doing it right.
>
> The German development seems to have been RATHER from the
> figurative usage of material schöpfen ("take out liquids", i.e.
> not "to create"), and to have had repeated encounters with
> its kin schaffen. NB: at the same time, both schöpfen and schaffen
> also have the meaning "to create" (cf. schöpferisch, schaffend,
> kreativ).

Yes, this is Grimm's opinion. However, when you create something in clay or stone (like the local Creator does at Creation time in several religions), you do it by taking away (cf. Latin scalpo/sculpo <- *skaNp-l-). If you want to make a log-boat you do the same, as a matter of fact you scoop it out. That's why I think it is possible to unite Grimm's two senses "create" and "scoop", and I think that is the original sense in 'recht schöpfen': to separate correctly. I even think that the German noun Recht "justice" is a result of misanalyzing the adverb in 'recht schöpfen' "separate/discriminate correctly" as a noun, thus 'Recht schöpfen' "scoop the law", which does not make a lot of sense, but the Germans have tried to do it anyway.

> Also note the following two aspects, which are crucial in
> the usage of derivates from this family in German:
>
> (1) the connotations in the figurative usage of the prefixed verbs
> __ausschöpfen and erschöpfen__: judges and Schöffen must
> "ausschöpfen" and "erschöpfen" all _legal_ possibilities as well
> as interpretations in order to get to the appropriate judgment,
> i.e. in order to "Recht verschaffen".

Grimm's opinion.

> (2) the German words that led to the derivate Schöffe ("member of
> the jury")

Not the original sense.

> already had in earlier periods the additional meaning...
> ... "ordnen" and "anordnen"!

Which is what a judge does, not a juror.

> An order issued by the court also
> means "Recht verschaffen, Recht sprechen" (i.e. Jurisprudenz).

If that had been the derivation, he would have been called something like *Rechtsschöffe. He wasn't, Grimm does not know such a word.

> >?ung. szép 'schön, (dial.) kellemes, kedvezö (SzamSz.), jó; >angenehm, günstig gut, (dial.) derék, nagy, hatalmas; stattlich, >groß, mächtig' (SzamSz., SzegSz.).
>

> ["from "jó, angenehm to mächtig", the equivalents are exaggerations:
> because szép actually does not mean all this, but it is used as
> an "enhancer", just like "recht; quite; very; pretty; highly"
> attached to an adjective. And I suppose it is a German calque:
> schön, for various situations where in German one also uses
> schön, as an adverb, instead of sehr, recht and äußerst, i.e.
> very, quite, pretty, utter/ly.]

The original sense is "schön", so irrelevant.

> [In the world of the steppe peoples, the smith was an important
> person, but his rank wasn't as high as that of the khan/kagan;
> rather that of the tarkhan. I doubt the connotation "handsome",
> as well as the connotation "judge". OTOH, there was the con-
> notation of "medicine man, doctor".]
>
> A smith a... "handsome, pretty, beautiful, nice" person?!

Where do you get that from?

> And what can a Schöffe (i.e. not a judge, but only his
> assistant) have in common with a "handsome smith"?

Where do you get that from?

> >From the concluded sense of "skilled" may easily have developed
> >the senses of "master, smith" in Finnish and Saami, and
> >"beautiful" in Hungarian; cf. Hungarian ügyes "skilled" ~
> >(dial.) "pretty"
>
> Where's the link betw. ügyes and Schöffe?!

Where do you see a claim that there was?

> (There is an indirect,
> incidental, link: schaffen "to create", but only semantically.)
> The initial morpheme ügy means "affair". Ügyes = ügy + the suffix
> -es [eS]. A verbatim translation would give "geschäftig" in
> German (even the pejorative South-German "G'schaftlhuber"; but
> in Hungarian ügyes has no pejorative connotation, it simply
> means the opposite of "awkward & all fingers thumbs".)

You have misread Rédei. He is providing three examples of a semantic transition from geschickt "skilled" to schön "beautiful"; he is not implying derivational relationship with Finno-Ugric *śeppä "geschickt" for any of the words he uses in the examples.

> >Mansi (Ahlqv.) mašter "master" ~ "gewandt",
> >Khanty (547) DN máśtar "master" ~ "skilled in something"
>
> These are connected with Meister, master, magister; I doubt that
> they are old Uralic words. Hungarian also has similar words:
> mester ['maeStaer] "Meister" & mesteséges "masterful, skilful;
> meisterhaft; elaborate".

Irrelevant. See above.

> >The derivation of the Hungarian word from
> >Chuvash šep "beautiful" (Róna-Tas: NytudÉrt. 58 : 174)
> >is improbable, since the Chuvash word is found only in a
> >small area.
>
> So what? The same meaning, almost the same phonetics, and
> Chuvash are Semi-Hungarians who never left their Volga territory,
> unlike the ancestors of Hungarians who settled down in Pannonia
> (coming from an area where there are Chuvashia, Mari-El,
> Bashkortostan, and Vladimir, Suzdal & al. former places of
> medieval "GarDariki").

I agree with you here. It seems like Rédei is trying to make his Finno-Ugric *śeppä "geschickt" an exclusively FU word; I think it is a Wanderwort for someone who takes apart and cleans, ie. a woodsman, 'Förster'

> The same Róna-Tas points out that the names of at least two modern
> Chuvash populations, Yurmatu and Yanay (sp?), are very close to
> the Hungarian (Kürt)gyarmat and Jenö tribes, mentioned by emperor
> Constantine Porphyrogenitus ("De administrando imperii") as
> Kourtougermatos and Genach.

Interesting.



Torsten