Re: [tied] Re: Schöffe I

>>of the judge:
>>'dieser sinn braucht nicht der steine unter den alten linden, um
>>gutes recht zu schöpfen.' Immermann Münchh. 4, 134.
>>meanwhile this sense has become generally mostly forgotten and
>><schöpfen> in this connection is thus mostly understood as
>>"haurire", so the 'recht schöpfen' means "take, fetch 'recht' (the
>>law, what's right) from somewhere" and is now no more said of the
>>legislator and rechtsprecher "law speaker", but of the plaintiff

This figurative schöpfen's kinship: Engl. scoop, MDutch schope,
OHG skepfen. Also Schaufel (engl. shovel), Schippe, Schaub;

Idea: to take/gather a liquid; a powder or gravel-like quantitiy.

But:

_schieben_ < OHG scioban, goth (af)skiuban; PIE *skeubh- "werfen,
schieben" (throw, push)

***R

English shove

who knows, maybe *kaupaz if you think along the line of "pusher" or you envision 2 lines of goods being pointed to and thrown back and forth by different groups --as documented among Native Americans

OTOH:
cf. _Schöpfkelle_ (ladle, scoop, dipper)
cf. Schaff, Scheffel, Schoppen
-------------------------------------------
cf. _schöpfen_ (trans. vb.)

(1)"mit einem Gefäß oder mit der hohlen Hand
aufnehmen, heben" (Flüssigkeit);
(2) Atem schöpfen "tief, bewusst atmen;
(fig.) Hoffnung, Mut, Vertrauen schöpfen; <-----------
(fig.) Verdacht schöpfen (to suspicionate)
(fig.) Kraft schöpfen
(3) (Jägersprache) das Wild schöpft "trinkt"

< mhd. schepfen, scheffen < ahd. scephen, zu
OHG scaph "Schaff, Gefäß", ursprünglich
"Ausgehöhltes", zu idg. *(s)kebh-, (s)kabh-,
(s)kap- "schaben"

(ausschöpfen: complete, the entire quantity; fig.: use
all possibilities, & erschöpfen // erschöpft "exhausted; very
tired")

-----------------------------------------------

_Schöpfer_ "Gefäß zum Schöpfen, Schöpfkelle,
Schöpfeimer, [Schöpflöffel; cf. Schöpfrad
"Wasserrad mit Zellen"; Schöpfwerk "Vorrichtung
zum mechanischen Heben von Wasser]
-----------------------------------------------

(das) _Schaff_ (oberdt.) "großes, offenes Holzgefäß,
Zuber, Bottich, Waschfaß, Schrank < ahd. skaph,
skaf "offenes Gefäß, Faß", zu idg. *skab-
"schnitzen, schaben"; verwandt mit Schoppen,
schaffen, Schuppe, schaben, Schaft

-----------------------------------------------

_Schaffel_ (österr.) kleines Schaff

(der) _Scheffel_ "altes Hohlmaß, landschaftlich
sehr verschiedener Größe: 23 - 223 L; altes
Flächenmaß, so viel Boden, wie mman mit einem
Scheffel voll Körner besäen kann; offenes
Holzgefäß, Bottich [hence = Schaff]
- etwas in Scheffeln einheimsen/erlangen/gewinnen
"in großen Mengen"
- es regnet wie mit Scheffeln "sehr stark" [cats
and dogs]
- er stellt sein Licht nicht unter den Scheffel
"er bringt seine Fähigkeiten gern zur Geltung"

-----------------------------------------------

_scheffeln_ "mit dem Scheffel aufhäufen"; (heute fig.)
"zusammenraffen, in großen Mengen erlangen, gewinnen"
[to garner, gather, collect] Geld scheffeln
das Getreide scheffelt "gibt viele Körner"
< ahd. sceffil; zu ahd. scaf "Gefäß für Flüssigkeiten,
Kornmaß"; zu idg. *skab- "schaben, schnitzen",
verwandt mit Schaff, schaffen, -schaft, schöpfen

-----------------------------------------------

(der) _Schoppen_ "Flüssigkeitsmaß, etwa 1/2 L; (im
Gastgewerbe) 1/4 L (Bier od. Wein); (lanschaftl.
auch) Schuppen; (schweizerisch) Saugflasche
< lothringisch chopenne < afrz. chopine < mnd.
schope, mhd. schuofe "Schöpfkelle des Maurers und
Brauers"; zu Schaff

-----------------------------------------------

(der) _Schaft_ < ahd. scaft "Lanzenschaft, Lanze;
Stiel, Stab, Stange", ursprünglich "ein geglätteter,
entrindeter Ast bzw. junger Baum"; zu: schaben.

[NB participles: geschabt; geschafft; geschaffen;
geschöpft; gescheffelt]

-----------------------------------------------

_schaben_ < ahd. scaban "kratzen, scharren, radieren",
engl. shave "schaben", got. skaban "scheren", zu
idg. *skab-, *skap-, *skabh- "schaben", verwandt u.a.
mit Schaft, Schuppe, Schaff, schaffen, Schoppen

-----------------------------------------------

cf. neo-Greek skáfi; Rumanian scafä & cäu$

cf. Lat. scabo, scabere "kratzen" (vgl. schaben)
/ scaber, scabra, scabrum / scabies / scabritia
cf. Lat. ex/cavo, -are / cavus,-a,-um (*covus)
cavatus "hohl"

cf. Gr. koilos < *kofilos & kóoi, kófiloi
cf. dt. hohl < ahd hol

NB:

Schäffler/Scheffler: South-German for Fassbinder, Fassküfer
(Küfner, Kübler; Küpper [cooper!]), Böttcher

>rättsskipning "the application of law by the courts"

In German, this is in general "Recht sprechen" and "Rechtsprechung"
(but Rechtsspruch "decision by a court" = gerichtliches Urteil), as
well as "Rechtsfindung, Rechtspflege"

>German <rechtschaffen> "righteous" etc

And: sich oder jemandem sein Recht verschaffen

>is not the noun <reht>, but the adjective <reht> "right", used
>adverbially, ie. "rightly"

Not only this, but also in the sens of "quite" and "very, highly,
utterly"! (recht herzlich, recht schönen Dank, recht gern, ich
weiß nicht recht, du kommst gerade recht, recht gescheit, recht
gut, recht hungrig)

>thus skipa/schaffen and all its cognates in those expressions
>should be understood as just one metaphorical step from its
>original sense of "divide, split up; take out the bad stuff",
>and doing that "rightly", ie doing it right.

The German development seems to have been RATHER from the
figurative usage of material schöpfen ("take out liquids", i.e.
not "to create"), and to have had repeated encounters with
its kin schaffen. NB: at the same time, both schöpfen and schaffen
also have the meaning "to create" (cf. schöpferisch, schaffend,
kreativ).

Also note the following two aspects, which are crucial in
the usage of derivates from this family in German:

(1) the connotations in the figurative usage of the prefixed verbs
__ausschöpfen and erschöpfen__: judges and Schöffen must
"ausschöpfen" and "erschöpfen" all _legal_ possibilities as well
as interpretations in order to get to the appropriate judgment,
i.e. in order to "Recht verschaffen".

(2) the German words that led to the derivate Schöffe ("member of
the jury") already had in earlier periods the additional meaning...
... "ordnen" and "anordnen"! An order issued by the court also
means "Recht verschaffen, Recht sprechen" (i.e. Jurisprudenz).

>?ung. szép 'schön, (dial.) kellemes, kedvezö (SzamSz.), jó; >angenehm, günstig gut, (dial.) derék, nagy, hatalmas; stattlich, >groß, mächtig' (SzamSz., SzegSz.).

["from "jó, angenehm to mächtig", the equivalents are exaggerations:
because szép actually does not mean all this, but it is used as
an "enhancer", just like "recht; quite; very; pretty; highly"
attached to an adjective. And I suppose it is a German calque:
schön, for various situations where in German one also uses
schön, as an adverb, instead of sehr, recht and äußerst, i.e.
very, quite, pretty, utter/ly.]

[In the world of the steppe peoples, the smith was an important
person, but his rank wasn't as high as that of the khan/kagan;
rather that of the tarkhan. I doubt the connotation "handsome",
as well as the connotation "judge". OTOH, there was the con-
notation of "medicine man, doctor".]

A smith a... "handsome, pretty, beautiful, nice" person?!
And what can a Schöffe (i.e. not a judge, but only his
assistant) have in common with a "handsome smith"?

>From the concluded sense of "skilled" may easily have developed
>the senses of "master, smith" in Finnish and Saami, and
>"beautiful" in Hungarian; cf. Hungarian ügyes "skilled" ~
>(dial.) "pretty"

Where's the link betw. ügyes and Schöffe?! (There is an indirect,
incidental, link: schaffen "to create", but only semantically.)
The initial morpheme ügy means "affair". Ügyes = ügy + the suffix
-es [eS]. A verbatim translation would give "geschäftig" in
German (even the pejorative South-German "G'schaftlhuber"; but
in Hungarian ügyes has no pejorative connotation, it simply
means the opposite of "awkward & all fingers thumbs".)

>Mansi (Ahlqv.) mašter "master" ~ "gewandt",
>Khanty (547) DN máśtar "master" ~ "skilled in something"

These are connected with Meister, master, magister; I doubt that
they are old Uralic words. Hungarian also has similar words:
mester ['maeStaer] "Meister" & mesteséges "masterful, skilful;
meisterhaft; elaborate".

>The derivation of the Hungarian word from
>Chuvash šep "beautiful" (Róna-Tas: NytudÉrt. 58 : 174)
>is improbable, since the Chuvash word is found only in a
>small area.

So what? The same meaning, almost the same phonetics, and
Chuvash are Semi-Hungarians who never left their Volga territory,
unlike the ancestors of Hungarians who settled down in Pannonia
(coming from an area where there are Chuvashia, Mari-El,
Bashkortostan, and Vladimir, Suzdal & al. former places of
medieval "GarDariki").

The same Róna-Tas points out that the names of at least two modern
Chuvash populations, Yurmatu and Yanay (sp?), are very close to
the Hungarian (Kürt)gyarmat and Jenö tribes, mentioned by emperor
Constantine Porphyrogenitus ("De administrando imperii") as
Kourtougermatos and Genach.

>F. Mészaros (NyK 65:178, s. auch PD 2201) has listed the Hungarian
>word with Khanty (835) V süγ, Trj. siγ "beauty"

Plausible.

>V sükəŋ "beautiful, good looking (person)"

This rather resembles Gypsy (Romani) shukar "beautiful".

>would have given *szëvëp or *szép, *szíp.

At least, modern Hungarian does have szép and (dialectal) szíp
[se:p & si:p].

George