Re: Schöffe II

>
> > >lith. klapas puer);
> >
> > German Knabe
> >
> > >bedeutsam ist namentlich altkelt. gnabat filius, natus
> >
> > German Knabe
> >
> > >s. DWB knabatz 2. '
> >
> > Quite imaginable: in khlap- & knapp/knab/knav. The
> > pronunciations of [l] and [n]: usually variants of
> > apico-alveolar configurations.
>
> That -atz suffix is odd for a supposedly Germanic word.
>
>
> I wasn't too happy with adding one extra manifestation, namely kn-,
> to the already extensive list of supposed descendants of my
> mysterious *λ-.

Not to mention the problem of having two semantic 'points of origin':
1 *λaN- "low, (sacred) hole in the ground, entrance to the beyond"
2 *kap- "take prisoners, booty"

> On the other hand Prellwitz lists κνέφας (related to
> Sanskrit ai. kşap, so it's the right kind of anlaut!) as related to
> σκέπας and that latter again to γνόφος and δνόφος, so who am I to
> argue?

That is in need of some clarification.

Prellwitz
Etymologisches Wörterbuch der griechischen Sprache

lists Sanskrit kşap- "night, darkness" both with γνόφoς, δνόφος, κνέφας, cf

'γνόφoς : s. δνόφoς, κνέφας.
...

δνόφος Finsternis,
δνοφερός finster,
`ιοδνεφής (Hom.),
γνόφος Dunkel : κνέφας id. ?
...

ζόφος Finsternis der Unterwelt (Hom.),
ζοφερός dunkel: cf ζέφυρος.
...

κνέφας n. Dunkel:
κνώψ· τυφλός (Suid.) Döderlein Gloss. 2246.
ψέφας bleibt besser fern.
Dazu auch γνόφος, δνόφος?
...

ψέφας n. Dunkel :
cf ab.
khşap- f. khşafan- :
khşafn- f. n.
khşapar- n.
khşapā- f. Nacht,
ai. kşap, kşapā ds.

Auch κνέψας und lat. crepusculum Dämmerung klingen an.
ψεφηνός, ψεφαρός, ψεφαι~ος dunkel.
Vgl. Curtius Grdz.5 705, Joh. Schmidt Neutr. 387.'

and with σκέπας "cover"
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67262


Dirk Boutkan
Pre-Greek, the Pre-Greek loans in Greek
unlike Prellwitz includes ψέφας "darkness" in that first group of γνόφoς, δνόφος, κνέφας


'5.14 Other variations.
There are a few instances with - isolated - puzzling variations. I mention just one, the word for 'night', where we have ψέφας, κνέφας, δνόφος, ζόφος. I think that in some of these cases the solution may be found in a cluster. E.g. Carian allows an initial cluster kbd-. Such clusters would have been simplified in Greek. (In IE we have the parallel of Lat. pecten, Gr. κτείς, supposed to continue *pkt-.) If we assume in our example a cluster *kdn-, it may have been reduced to kn- or, with loss of the first consonant, to dn-. (The process is of course the same as the reduction γδ- > δ-, above 5.13.) Such variant simplifications are typical of loan words. In this way we could connect two of the words; but I see no way to connect the other two.'

In other words, even in a detailed survey of non-Greek layers in Greek, the anlaut variation of this word stands out, indicating extensive criss-cross borrowing. As for joining ψέφας, κνέφας, δνόφος, ζόφος, it might not be that difficult, perhaps one should bear in mind Slav. *knaN- -> Polish ksieN-.

As for semantics, note the Homerian ζόφος "darkness of the underworld" above. That connects nicely to the otherworld theme of sense 1 above. Or, argued another way, slavery is hell. Slaves are walking dead.

>
> > >Or were you thinking of something to do with Knaan?
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knaanic
> >
> > AFAIK, wether the Knappe/Knabe family, nor the khlap-/khlop-
> > family include the idea "Jewish Czech/Lusatian/Polish
> > slavery or serfdom". (Cnaan means Canaan = Palestina)
>
> > Whereas all knap-knab-gnab--khlap-khlop words have the
> > same chief meanings "servant", "page", "boy".
>
> It is a possibility.
>
> Wexler
> Explorations ...
> p. 5, fn. 17
> 'The use of He kna´anī to denote Slavdom and Slavic languages in
> Medieval times follows the practice in European languages of
> equating 'slave' and 'Slav' and reflects the fact that the
> Canaanites in the Old Testament had the status of slaves. For
> details see Mieses 1934:253; Kupfer and Lewicki 1956:28-30; M.
> Weinreich 1956; 1973:84; Jakobson and Halle 1964:147-154; Lewicki
> 1964c:364. The founder of the Chassidic movement, the Baal Sem Tov
> (pseudonym of Jisrael ben Eliεzer, 1699-1760) is reputed to have
> called his Ukrainian servant a "Canaanite" (Chajes 1934:449). The
> Polish Jewish family name Chanaan (Kraków 1495) may indicate a
> Christian convert to Judaism (Mieses 1934:253). See also SeJud
> kenaani adj 'Slavic, Yugoslav, gentile (?)' (1862), which appears to
> be the most recent use of the Hebraism in this meaning.'
>
> and
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67122

And here of course I also worried that I would introduce a third Semantic 'point of origin', in this case a certain geographical area. But it turns out I needn't have worried: the name of Canaan seems to have been derived from a Semitic root knʿ "to be low, humble, depressed"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan#Etymology
my sense 1, in other words. The "thieves and Canaanites (i.e. Kinahhu)" in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan#Mesopotamian_references
might indicate that 'Canaanites', like apparently 'Bastarnae', meant "the slave people" from the outset, which would also explain the somewhat vacillating delineation of their territory.

Worrying about how to connect sense 1 "low; sacred waterhole" and sense 2 "take (prisoner)" this, another Boutkan article, came to mind:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61680
where *slag- has both senses:
1 something wet
2 defeat
and also connecting elsewhere, with mining. So the slag and scalawags and slackers of society were sent to clean slag in the mines and furnaces. Cf the poor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotini
Tacitus Germania:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus-germ-latin.html
'Cotinos Gallica, Osos Pannonica lingua coarguit non esse Germanos, et quod tributa patiuntur. Partem tributorum Sarmatae, partem Quadi ut alienigenis imponunt: Cotini, quo magis pudeat, et ferrum effodiunt.'
https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~wstevens/history331texts/barbarians.html
"The Cotini and the Osi are not Germans: that is proved by their languages, Celtic in the one case, Pannonian in the other, and also by the fact that they submit to paying tribute. The payments are exacted from them, as foreigners, by the Quadi and by the Sarmatians respectively - of which the Cotini have all the more reason to be ashamed inasmuch as they work iron mines."

This after they were geschlagen "defeated", in a Schlacht "battle", after which they would wish they had been slain instead.


And this (on the left)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gundestrupkarret3.jpg
might have been what they did, although I have no clue what it was they actually did did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron
'Plate E: Warriors and Cauldron, initiation ritual
In the lower half, a line of warriors bearing spears and shields, accompanied by carnyx players march to the left. On the left side, a large figure is immersing a man in a cauldron. In the upper half, facing away from the cauldron are warriors on horseback. This has been interpreted[who?] as an initiation scene.'



Torsten