Re: 'dyeus' chronology

On Ma-to-ro and Ma-ta-u-ro: Do you understand why some people on one side of the river call it duero and the same river on the other side is called douro?

***R Douro /dowru/ vs. Duero /dwero/ are perfectly explainable, given that Spanish and Portuguese are known. What you say about people on one side calling it one thing and the other something else is wrong. It's called Duero in most of Spain and Douro in most of Portugal but along the thinly populated border, I noticed that the local versions of Spanish (actually Leonese)  and Portuguese (in some places Leonese, other places fala, etc.) sounded pretty much alike. I noticed that border Portuguese had Spanish vowels --at least in the town of Elvas and tended denasalize final nasals.

BUT 

As I remember, Dr. Brighenti pointed out that your argument completely lacked credibility. So you might want to stop kicking that dead horse and eat it. 

BTW: What is your doctorate in?

On the sanskrit invention saMhartR: it would be good to get in to a sanskrit class. The word for destroyer is : sun(g)har which can be pronounced sin(g)har (spelling in hindi would be:
"sa" followed by "nasal dot which sounds like an english n and not m as Dr Brighenti would have us believe" "ha" "r")

So Gareth Owens is absolutely right that siru (from Sinhrutra) is a word for destroyer in Sanskrit. Keraijo would be the equivalent form in Greek and hence Cretans spoke a satem language.

-Shivraj

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@> wrote:
>
> > Matoro and Matauro in a syllabic script are indistinguishable. (If
> > you are confused ask a spanish or a portugese whether it is duero
> > or douro).
>
> You don't know what you are talking about. MA-TO-RO is written with three syllabic signs of the Linear B alphabet, and MA-TA-U-RO with four. See the pictures of these two inscriptions:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/38ncewh (#8151, left side: MA-TA-U-RO)
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3685kgj (first three signs read as: MA-TO-RO)
>
> > We know you are Sanskrit challenged.
>
> What does this sentence mean? Is it English?
>
> > Destroyer in Sanskrit is Si(n)hrutra which is what Gareth Owens is
> > talking about [re: G. Owens' article at
> > http://www.teicrete.gr/daidalika/script.pdf ]
>
> In his article Owens just says "SI-RU- means 'to destroy' in Sanskrit, and has interesting connections with the divinity Shiva" (p. 5). Apart from the fact that "SI-RU-" does not mean 'to destroy' in Sanskrit, you now say that Owens would be actually referring to a word for 'destroyer', "Si(n)hrutra", which does not exist, and would in any event be different from "SI-RU-". Are you perhaps referring, using your corrupted spelling, to the Skt. word saMhartR- 'destroyer, annihilator'?
>
> FB
>
> > Lastly dupure on Linear A tablets contains Pura (palace). You can
> > read the context of this word.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > -Shivraj
> >
> > PS: I see you have side stepped the direct question about
> > Saraswati. Are you doing another "Brighenti" on us?
>
>
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@> wrote:
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS: Seals on Crete contain the name Ma-to-ro.
> > > > >
> > > > > Really?
> > > > >
> > > > Matauro is attested on tablets from Crete.
> > >
> > > Yes, it is (on just one Linear B tablet from Knossos), yet this is not the same term as <ma-to-ro-pu-ro> (read as "matro-pulos", i.e. Mother-Pylos) inscribed on Linear B tablets from the Pylos area. Indeed, you (Shivraj) had to emend your initial statement that "seals on Crete contain the name Ma-to-ro". On the contrary, <ma-ta-u-ro> is a Mycenaean proper noun given to a shepherd, which is generally thought to contain the word "tauros" (bull). Accordingly, this name is generally read as "Mastauros" or "Matauros".
> > >
> > > You had been repeatedly pointed to the *fact* that <ma-to-ro> (Mycenaean for 'mother') is not attested on Linear B tablets from Crete, and this *fact* still stands!
> > >
> > > > Not only this; du-pure on Cretan tablets stands for "master of a
> > > > place/palace". Just to remind you pura in Vedic Sanskrit is a
> > > > palace.
> > >
> > > Now you start citing some **Linear A** tentative readings, which means you are merely relating some linguistic speculations (because Linear A is still an undeciphered script, and there is no consensual view not even on the reading of its signs).
> > >
> > > The reading of Linear A <du-pu2-re> as 'master' is proposed by Miguel Val�rio in his article "`Diktaian Master': A Minoan Predecessor of Diktaian Zeus in Linear A?" (_ Kadmos_, Volume 46, Issue 1-2) -- see abstract at
> > >
> > > http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/KADMOS.2007.002
> > >
> > > Val�rio writes that <du-pu2-re> signifies 'master' based on its phonetic similarity to the Hittite royal title tabarna/labarna (in cuneiform writing, <ta-ba-ar-na>/<la-ba-ar-na>), which he must assume a priori to mean 'ruler'. Yet, Hittite tabarna/labarna is interpreted by certain Anatolian specialists as a Hattic loanword, by certain others as a Balkans/Asia minor substrate word, and still by others as an Indo-European-inherited word. In the last case, the proto-form usually proposed for the word is *dhabhro-no-, which would mean something like 'leader of the fittest men', 'lord of the brave'.
> > >
> > > We can conclude that, even conceding that Miguel Val�rio is right in deriving Linear A <du-pu2-re> from Hittite tabarna and translating the Minoan word as 'ruler', in no case this word is cognate with Vedic pur-. Indeed, on the one hand, if Hittite tabarna is non-IE, the cognacy you imagine is excluded and, on the other hand, if it is an IE word, the cognacy you imagine is likewise excluded.
> > >
> > > > > > Minoan Cretan language belongs to Satem group unlike
> > > > > > Greek.
> > > > >
> > > > > Eh? Minoan is an isolate.
> > > >
> > > > I guess you are familiar with all the languages of this region
> > > > anterior to Greek? Anyway the word for destroyer on Cretan tables
> > > > is sirute which can be compare to sanskrit siru "to destroy" and
> > > > can be compare to Greek "keraijo" which means destruction.
> > >
> > > I know where you have found this linguistic comparison; it's at
> > >
> > > http://www.teicrete.gr/daidalika/script.pdf (pag. 5)
> > >
> > > The author of this article, Gareth A. Owens, is currently trying to decipher the Linear A script of Crete under the assumption that the underlying "Minoan" language of the Linear A tablets is an Indo-European language of the Satem branch. Owens read the formula <i-pi-na-mi-na si-ru-te>, occurring on Minoan libation tables, as "Ipinama the Destroyer", with "Ipinama" being supposedly the name of a Minoan goddess. He connects <si-ru-te> to Sanskrit "si-ru-" (this being his wrong transcription of the Sanskrit verbal root s'ar- 'to break, crash, tear apart'!) and Greek kera�zo:- 'to devastate, destroy'. As a matter of fact, the Sanskrit and Greek verbal forms are thought by some Indo-Europeanists to derive from PIE *k^erh2- 'to break', but the derivation of the Linear A word tentatively read as <si-ru-te> from this IE root is entirely a speculation of Owens'. Just to give you an idea of the controversial character of his readings, just think that other Linear A scholars, as I have seen, regard <si-ru-te> as an adverb which has nothing to do with the meaning 'destroyer'!
> > >
> > > > > > Their is reference to Siva like destroyer on Cretan tablets.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do tell.
> > > >
> > > > See above.
> > >
> > > In case, it would not be S'iva (a male "destroyer" god), but rather a goddess as your source claims.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Francesco
> > >
> >
>