Re: Tudrus

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:

>
> At 4:49:33 AM on Tuesday, January 11, 2011, Torsten wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> > <bm.brian@> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >>> More likely seems to me an origin in 'long-vowel verbs',
> >>> from a kind of impersonal '4sg' in -i alone, cf Greek
> >>> 3sg pherei, cf Dutch draai-, gooi-, Grm dreh-, NW dial
> >>> gouw- "turn", "throw", later 'normalized' with a 3sg -t
> >>> suffix: draait, gooit.
>
> >> drehen < drāan < *þrōanã; originally Class VII, *þrōanã,
> >> *þeþrō, *þeþrōun, *þrōanaz. In German, unlike English,
> >> it was transferred to the weak verbs, though a strong
> >> ppart. is found as late as MHG.
>
> > Still, the Dutch (and LG, 'dreiht' ibd.) -i needs an
> > explanation.
>
> You mean in <draai->? It's simply a different way of
> breaking the original hiatus, parallel to the OHG variant
> <drājan>.

That's your proposal? I don't think so, *-o-a- to *-oya- is not a natural phonetic development.

> > I suppose I could match it with the "throng" verb, as I
> > did with *sta:-/stand- and *ga:-/gang-. Odd semantics,
> > BTW, between Dutch draaien and Enl. throw. Maritime term
> > for steering?
>
> No.

I didn't ask for your approval. If you have reasons for not accepting a proposal, please state what they are.

> OE <þrāwan> was 'to turn, twist, curl'; the usual
> modern sense is first attested in the late 13th century.
> The development isn't clear; possibly the connection is
> the turning motion of the arm or a sling when one throws
> something.

You still 'throw' a rudder (left or right) in English, in order to make your boat draaien, which is why I suspect a connection through maritime language. Transfer of some possible technological breakthrough in rudder technology to England (from the Hanse cogs?) in the late 13th century?

There is also 'wheel-thrown' of pottery from a potter's wheel.

> >>> I'd venture the same origin for Eng. stay.
>
> >> It's a borrowing from French.
>
> > Proposed to be. Dutch staan, Da./Sw. stå are most likely
> > related. What's the official story of sway/zwaaien?
> > Zwaaien has navigation origins too.
>
> <Sway> in its modern sense dates only from ~1500 and is
> quite possibly from LG <swājen> 'to be moved hither and
> thither by the wind' or a Dutch reflex thereof.
>

DEO has
'svaj et, (en)
1. (mar.) i forb. ligge på svaj '(om fartøj) forankret ved kun én stævn, så skibet svinger eft. vind og strøm'.
2. (dial.) 'svingning med kroppen; tummel, støj, kommers'; no. svai, sv. svaj; vbs. til svaje.

svaje v.; no. svaie, sv. svaja;
lånt (i mar. sprog) fra holl. zwaaien el. nty. swāien, hvorfra også ty. schwaien, schwojen;
til ie. *swĕ:(i)-, se u. svige.

- Jf. svaj, svajer.'

in other words most likely imported in the maritime sense. A case can be made (see above) that draaien is a word from that sphere too, which would increase the likelihood of the -i- occuring in them both being 'local', like the 'misplaced' 3sg -s, thus something fundamental in the person/number endings.

BTW PIE *-e:i- makes it a long vowel verb (corresponding to OE contracted verbs?).


Torsten