From: Francesco Brighenti
Message: 66885
Date: 2010-11-13
> Matoro and Matauro in a syllabic script are indistinguishable. (IfYou don't know what you are talking about. MA-TO-RO is written with three syllabic signs of the Linear B alphabet, and MA-TA-U-RO with four. See the pictures of these two inscriptions:
> you are confused ask a spanish or a portugese whether it is duero
> or douro).
> We know you are Sanskrit challenged.What does this sentence mean? Is it English?
> Destroyer in Sanskrit is Si(n)hrutra which is what Gareth Owens isIn his article Owens just says "SI-RU- means 'to destroy' in Sanskrit, and has interesting connections with the divinity Shiva" (p. 5). Apart from the fact that "SI-RU-" does not mean 'to destroy' in Sanskrit, you now say that Owens would be actually referring to a word for 'destroyer', "Si(n)hrutra", which does not exist, and would in any event be different from "SI-RU-". Are you perhaps referring, using your corrupted spelling, to the Skt. word saMhartR- 'destroyer, annihilator'?
> talking about [re: G. Owens' article at
> http://www.teicrete.gr/daidalika/script.pdf ]
> Lastly dupure on Linear A tablets contains Pura (palace). You can
> read the context of this word.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> -Shivraj
>
> PS: I see you have side stepped the direct question about
> Saraswati. Are you doing another "Brighenti" on us?
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@> wrote:
> >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: Seals on Crete contain the name Ma-to-ro.
> > > >
> > > > Really?
> > > >
> > > Matauro is attested on tablets from Crete.
> >
> > Yes, it is (on just one Linear B tablet from Knossos), yet this is not the same term as <ma-to-ro-pu-ro> (read as "matro-pulos", i.e. Mother-Pylos) inscribed on Linear B tablets from the Pylos area. Indeed, you (Shivraj) had to emend your initial statement that "seals on Crete contain the name Ma-to-ro". On the contrary, <ma-ta-u-ro> is a Mycenaean proper noun given to a shepherd, which is generally thought to contain the word "tauros" (bull). Accordingly, this name is generally read as "Mastauros" or "Matauros".
> >
> > You had been repeatedly pointed to the *fact* that <ma-to-ro> (Mycenaean for 'mother') is not attested on Linear B tablets from Crete, and this *fact* still stands!
> >
> > > Not only this; du-pure on Cretan tablets stands for "master of a
> > > place/palace". Just to remind you pura in Vedic Sanskrit is a
> > > palace.
> >
> > Now you start citing some **Linear A** tentative readings, which means you are merely relating some linguistic speculations (because Linear A is still an undeciphered script, and there is no consensual view not even on the reading of its signs).
> >
> > The reading of Linear A <du-pu2-re> as 'master' is proposed by Miguel Val�rio in his article "`Diktaian Master': A Minoan Predecessor of Diktaian Zeus in Linear A?" (_ Kadmos_, Volume 46, Issue 1-2) -- see abstract at
> >
> > http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/KADMOS.2007.002
> >
> > Val�rio writes that <du-pu2-re> signifies 'master' based on its phonetic similarity to the Hittite royal title tabarna/labarna (in cuneiform writing, <ta-ba-ar-na>/<la-ba-ar-na>), which he must assume a priori to mean 'ruler'. Yet, Hittite tabarna/labarna is interpreted by certain Anatolian specialists as a Hattic loanword, by certain others as a Balkans/Asia minor substrate word, and still by others as an Indo-European-inherited word. In the last case, the proto-form usually proposed for the word is *dhabhro-no-, which would mean something like 'leader of the fittest men', 'lord of the brave'.
> >
> > We can conclude that, even conceding that Miguel Val�rio is right in deriving Linear A <du-pu2-re> from Hittite tabarna and translating the Minoan word as 'ruler', in no case this word is cognate with Vedic pur-. Indeed, on the one hand, if Hittite tabarna is non-IE, the cognacy you imagine is excluded and, on the other hand, if it is an IE word, the cognacy you imagine is likewise excluded.
> >
> > > > > Minoan Cretan language belongs to Satem group unlike
> > > > > Greek.
> > > >
> > > > Eh? Minoan is an isolate.
> > >
> > > I guess you are familiar with all the languages of this region
> > > anterior to Greek? Anyway the word for destroyer on Cretan tables
> > > is sirute which can be compare to sanskrit siru "to destroy" and
> > > can be compare to Greek "keraijo" which means destruction.
> >
> > I know where you have found this linguistic comparison; it's at
> >
> > http://www.teicrete.gr/daidalika/script.pdf (pag. 5)
> >
> > The author of this article, Gareth A. Owens, is currently trying to decipher the Linear A script of Crete under the assumption that the underlying "Minoan" language of the Linear A tablets is an Indo-European language of the Satem branch. Owens read the formula <i-pi-na-mi-na si-ru-te>, occurring on Minoan libation tables, as "Ipinama the Destroyer", with "Ipinama" being supposedly the name of a Minoan goddess. He connects <si-ru-te> to Sanskrit "si-ru-" (this being his wrong transcription of the Sanskrit verbal root s'ar- 'to break, crash, tear apart'!) and Greek kera�zo:- 'to devastate, destroy'. As a matter of fact, the Sanskrit and Greek verbal forms are thought by some Indo-Europeanists to derive from PIE *k^erh2- 'to break', but the derivation of the Linear A word tentatively read as <si-ru-te> from this IE root is entirely a speculation of Owens'. Just to give you an idea of the controversial character of his readings, just think that other Linear A scholars, as I have seen, regard <si-ru-te> as an adverb which has nothing to do with the meaning 'destroyer'!
> >
> > > > > Their is reference to Siva like destroyer on Cretan tablets.
> > > >
> > > > Do tell.
> > >
> > > See above.
> >
> > In case, it would not be S'iva (a male "destroyer" god), but rather a goddess as your source claims.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Francesco
> >
>