Re: Res: [tied] Re: On the Sanskrit theonym "Nasatya"

If we put a time line:
Nasatya RgVed ~2000 B.C
Nasatya Mitanni ~1400 B.C
Nanhaitya Avesta ~1000 B.C (?)
Nestor Illiad ~700 B.C

-Shivraj

You mean Rg Veda 500 CE. This is not the place for anti-scientific nationalism. I wonder about the date for the Avesta. The Persians didn't have writing until c. 500 BCE or so. You left out the Crimean Aryans, who were a lot closer to the Indo-Aryan homeland than India is.

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
>
> Nes- is also present in the name of Greek Nestor, son of the twin Neileos
> (<*Nes-lawos ?)
>
> JS Lopes
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> De: shivkhokra <shivkhokra@...>
> Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Enviadas: Sexta-feira, 8 de Outubro de 2010 7:14:28
> Assunto: [tied] Re: On the Sanskrit theonym "Nasatya"
>
>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "shivkhokra" <shivkhokra@> wrote:
> >
> > > But weren't Mitanni Aryans from India? The names of Gods that
> > > appear in RV 10.125.1 are present in the Mitanni treaty of 1380 BCE
> > > in the exact same order:
> > >
> > > ahám mitraáváruNobhaá bibharmy ahám indraagnií ahám ashvínobhaá
> > >
> > > The reason that these Gods are mentioned in the treaty is not
> > > a random choice on the part of the scribe. Instead it is because
> > > one of the functions assigned to these gods by Rgveda deals with
> > > treaties...
> >
> > Hasn't it ever occurred to you that the names of these same deities, or
> >possibly their older forms, might have invoked to ask them to guard against the
> >breach of treaties also at the time the Indo-Aryans were still residing in
> >Central Asia? From there, the worship of these deities, along with this special
> >funcion of theirs, might have been carried through migratory movements to both
> >North Syria/Mesopotamia (by the ancestors of the Mitanni Aryans) and the Greater
> >Panjab (by the the ancestors of the Rgvedic Aryans).
> >
> > Did the composers of Rgvedic hymns create Mitra-Varun.a, Indra, and the
> >Nâsatyas (or As'vins) as well as their function as guardians of treaties, _ex
> >nihilo_? Or did these gods and this special function of theirs have some
> >antecedents? In the affirmative, why should we assume that the antecedents of
> >these gods and of this special function of theirs (viz., as guardians of
> >treaties) could have developed in South Asia *only*, and *only* after the
> >Rgvedic hymns were composed in that geographic area?
> >
> >
> > > In RV 1.120.8, the Asvins are also invoked to guard against the
> > > breach of a treaty. Yaska in Nirukta 6.13 shows that they were
> > > regarded as protectors of the truth: "they are (na-asatya) i.e they
> > > are true and not false". Without Rig Ved and Yaska we cannot
> > > understand why these Gods of India would be used on the treaties by
> > > the Mitanni as these Indian Gods were not gods in Iran or any other
> > > country of the world.
> >
> > For a discussion of the *three* (not just the one you mention!) different
> >etymologies for the Sanskrit theonym Nâsatya being provided in Yâska's _Nirukta_
> >6.13, as well as, in general, for the value of the Sanskrit etymologies offered
> >by Yâska himself (who perhaps lived in the fifth century BCE), see already A.A.
> >Macdonell, _A Vedic Reader for Students_, Oxford 1917:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/32lmm65
> > << In the earlier period of Vedic studies, commencing about the, middle of the
> >nineteenth century, the traditional method, which follows the great commentary
> >of Sâyan.a (fourteenth century A.D.), and is represented by the translation of
> >the RV, begun by H.H. Wilson in 1850, was considered adequate. It has since been
> >proved that, though the native Indian commentators are invaluable guides in
> >explaining the theological and ritual texts of the Brâhman.as and Sûtras, with
> >the atmosphere of which they were familiar, they did not possess a continuous
> >tradition from the time when the Vedic hymns were composed. That the gap between
> >the poets and the interpreters even earlier than Yâska must have been
> >considerable, is shown by the divergences of opinion among his predecessors as
> >quoted by him. Thus one of these, Aurn.avâbha, interprets nâsatyau, an epithet
> >of the As'vins, as 'true, not false', another, Agrâyan.a, as 'leaders of truth'
> >(satyasya pran.etârau), while Yâska himself thinks it may mean 'nose-born'
> >(nâsikâ-prabhavau)! Yâska, moreover, mentions several different schools of
> >interpretation, each of which explained difficulties in accordance with its own
> >particular theory. Yâska's own interpretations, which in all cases of doubt are
> >based on etymology, are evidently often merely conjectural, for he frequently
> >gives several alternative explanations of a word. >>
>
> Well Panini also gives etymology of Na-asatya (not untruth: hence truth) and it
> makes sense since their names appear on treaties i.e they are considered
> protectors of truth.
>
>
> >
> > Several modern linguists have proposed that the name Nâsatya may go back to the
> >Indo-Iranian verbal root *nas- 'to come together (at home)' < PIE *nes- 'to
> >return home safely'. Compare Sanskrit nasate- 'to unite with, associate oneself
> >with, approach, embrace', Greek neomai- 'to return home (happily), get off from
> >trouble', nostos- 'returning home', Gothic ganisan- 'to be saved, escape from
> >(danger)', nasjan- 'to save'. True, the semantics of *nes- are hardly precise,
> >yet it is possible to interpret this PIE root as denoting, through the meaning
> >'return to the starting point', either the idea of 'safe/happy return home' and
> >that of '(safety through) restoration of health/vigor (thanks to feeding at
> >home)'. In Sanskrit, the name Nâsatya attributed to the As'vins would, thus,
> >have originally meant something like 'the Saviors', which would correspond to
> >one of the epithets of the Greek Dioskouroi, Sôtêres ('the Saviors') -- and, of
> >course, the Dioskouroi twins are generally considered to correspond to the
> >As'vin twins from the perspective of Indo-European comparative mythology. See J.
> >Haudry,"Les Asvins dans le Rigveda et les jumeaux divins indoeuropéens",
> >_Bulletin des Études Indiennes_ 6 (1988), pp. 275-303)
> >
>
> Indo-Iranian root does not make much sense because in Avesta Nasatya are
> destrucive demons and don't play much of a role in their mythology. What is
> interesting though is that in Rk veda the dvanda compound "Indra Nasatya" occurs
> while in Vendidad we have Indra..Saurva..Nanhaithim, all demons. Sarva as a God
> does not occur in Rk Veda but in later texts.
>
> -Shivraj
>