Vanr (was: Re: [tied] Áss etc.)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:

> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" wrote:

> > >

> > Juggling palatalization isn't required either: Estonian has a more similar form _Vanemuine_, reshaped by association to _vana_ "old".
> > >

> > First, this borrowing occurred long ago, before borrowing > FU (if, as likely, it was borrowed),
>
> What are you dating this by?

There are various groups of gods, etc., borrowed > Gmc (or possibly some only > North Gmc). Some are IE, but not Gmc because of the retained C, V, etc., like a group associated w the Divine Mead:

Kvasir < * kwat.s.yó+ < ... 'boil, brew, foam, steam' (ca:seus 'cheese' L; kvasU OBg; but hwaþjan 'to foam' Go; etc.)

Gillingr < * gWd.el+ 'bubbling, dripping, etc.' (jala- 'water', S; Quelle 'spring of water', quellen 'flow/gush' NHG;)

Suttungr < * sewt+ (but t > þ in Gmc; seething, etc.)


These can be put into stages, most of which precede any apparent contact w FU, and since the languages of previous peoples is otherwise unknown, and FU seems to have come from the east, a common non-Gmc non-FU origin is likely.

> > > > As to this particular word, its origin likely separates it from the explanation above for native words (only in the historical sense), since it's likely borrowed from a non-Gmc language spoken by those who worshipped Ing, etc., before. I'd say con. w Väinämöinen; the sky god * waNyámö? > waN?ámöy > waN?áway > wanáway dis> wanáy [then ana. as if plural > 'gods of the _'].
> > >
> > > That's an interesting idea, tho your derivation doesn't really need any m-deleting steps (the *-mo is suffixal, cf. the variant _Väinö_).
> >
> >
> > It is not a suffix, judging by its etymology (without which I wouldn't have any reason to suggest a form like * waNyámö? ); the change is opt. m > w then dissimilation w-w>0.
>
> So where are you having that protoform & that change occur then?
>
>

>
> > Second, this "juggling" or metathesis occurred all the time, so since it is obvious in many words, trying to avoid it in others in which it is not so obvious provides no benefit.
> >
> > Consider a simple and easily seen one:
> >
> > Ve:linas \ Ve:lenas (god who grants powers; associated w underworld/w/swamps/r/lakes) OLith; Velnias Lith;
>
> Which is in Baltic, not in Scandinavian or Baltic-Finnic?
>
>
> > Then, in nagaimbi Baibai; kami 'sky/heaven' Fas; mway Kwomtari; these closely related l. show at least one obvious set of cognates,
>
> Um, aren't these New Guinean languages? What the heck has this to do with the topic?
>
> John Vertical

I've talked about some of this before. I might say more later on this specific topic.