From: dgkilday57
Message: 66674
Date: 2010-10-01
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:Apparently water runs uphill in Mexico, then. Some speakers pronounce <yo> almost identically to English <Joe>, and the popular song <Mayonesa> was recorded with a very clear voiced affricate, not a mere approximant. (I am not familiar with Mexican dialects, and I do not know what part of Mexico the singers inhabit.)
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@> wrote:
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>
> > >
> > > . . .
> > >
> > > You spoke of "socio-allophones" which amount to distinctions of
> > > "sociolect". My position is that the observed distinctions are
> > > dialectal, not "sociolectal". We have true Latin <Dia:na>,
> > > <fla:men Dia:lis>, and <Die:spiter> beside Sabinizing
> > > <Juppiter>. What this indicates is that some of the Roman
> > > priesthoods were traditionally Latin while others were
> > > traditionally Sabine. If we postulate a Sabinizing "sacred
> > > sociolect" for <Juppiter>, we must also have a true Latin
> > > "sacred sociolect" for <Die:spiter> et al., and
> > > these "sociolects" are phonologically indistinguishable from the
> > > ordinary dialects with their everyday profane words.
> > >
> > >
> > > ***Rick sez:
> > > Do these Sabinized <j-> words exist outside of the religious and
> > > astronical/astrological domain? If not, they could be taboo forms
> > > based on the rustic forms, which may have been perceived by Latin
> > > speakers as something akin to Gosh, Crikey, Criminy, Laword
> > > (Southern pronunciation), etc.
> >
> > That is possible, but like Torsten's theory of sociolects I think
> > it complicates matters unnecessarily.
>
> The obvious Latin y- > Romance dy- development seems counterintuitive to me, like water running uphill, Standard Swedish pronunciation of written dj- as y-, vs the conservative Finnish Swedish pronunciation dy- fits my intuition. A low sociolect d3- and high sociolect y- of written i- for Latin would take water uphill.
> > This is arguably another religious word, but I suspect thatIn that case we would be dealing with *yegHy- or *yagHy- or whatever. My position is that there is no reduplication in <je:ju:nus>, since the two /j/'s come from different roots. The form <ja:ju:nus> might result from crossing <je:ju:nus> with *adju:nus, though this is not particularly convincing, and the connection with <janto:> and <jento:> is semantically difficult. I must admit that I have not solved all the problems with this set of words.
> > <je:ju:nus> 'fasting' comes from Sabine Latin. I have not found a
> > fully adequate explanation of this word in the handbooks.
> > Thurneysen (KZ 32:566) supported a connection with Sanskrit
> > <a:dyu:nas> 'voracious'. Walde (LEW s.v.) regarded the latter as
> > reflecting an IE compound *e:dy-u:no-s 'lacking food', the first
> > element (with lengthened grade) being found in Skt. <a:dyas>
> > 'edible', the second being cognate with Lat. <va:nus> 'empty', but
> > in zero-grade. In our modern notation this would be
> > *h1e:dy-uh2no-s. The initial sound of <je:ju:nus> is still
> > unexplained.
> >
> > Walde cites Niedermann (BB 25:293) for further material. N. cites
> > a Latin by-form <e:ju:[n]ium> beside <je:ju:nium> 'fast, abstinence
> > from food', and notes that Schuchardt (RC 5:492) referred Spanish
> > <ayuno>, Rumanian <ajun>, and the Irish loanword <aoin>, all
> > meaning 'fast', to a Vulgar Latin by-form *a:ju:nium. However, the
> > VL form could just as easily be *adju:nium, since we have (for
> > example) Sp. <ayudar> from Lat. <adju:ta:re>. If we postulate
> > borrowing from a
> > dialect which reflected */dy/ as /y/ (namely Sabine Latin),
> > *e:ju:nus 'lacking food, hungry' would be the exact cognate of Skt.
> > <a:dyu:nas>, leading to <e:ju:nium> 'period of hunger, fast'. With
> > the first syllable reinterpreted as the prefix 'out-', this could
> > easily have generated VL *adju:nium by analogy. If <e:junium> was
> > popularly understood as 'a fasting out' to remove purported toxins
> > from the body, then *adju:nium would be 'a fasting by' for whatever
> > reason, such as sleeping (hence Sp. <desayuno> 'breakfast').
> >
> > In this view <je:ju:nus> can be explained as contracted from the
> > Sabine Latin phrase *je:(i)-e:ju:nus 'fasting during the day,
> > fasting from dawn to dusk' whose first part is the locative or
> > ablative of 'day' corresponding to Lat. <die:>. This word would
> > originally have applied to religious fasting (this sort is indeed
> > still practiced), but was easily extended to fasting in general,
> > and metaphorically to 'lean, sparse, skimpy' etc. by Cicero.
> >
> > It must be carefully noted that while Sabine Latin had /y/ from
> > */dy/ where Latin had /di/, the Sabine language itself had /s/
> > (probably the voiced allophone [z] as in Oscan). Livy tells us
> > that the first Appius Claudius was the Sabine Attus Clausus (as
> > explained elsewhere, the praenominal change cannot be phonetic, and
> > probably was necessary in Rome to avoid sounding like 'Matron'
> > (Etruscan <ati> 'mother') rather than 'Patron' (Etr.
> > <apa> 'father')). Lat. <basus> for <badius> 'chestnut-brown' and
> > <rosa> 'rose, collection of roses' (Italic *wrod-ya:, from a
> > non-IE root) have the same feature and are most likely true
> > Sabinisms. My provisional view is that the Sabine Latin dialect
> > became important at the time when Clausus and his 5000 clients
> > were co-opted into the Roman state shortly after the
> > establishment of the Republic, and were given land seized from
> > the Etruscans. At this time (ca. 500 BCE) I suppose that Latin
> > still had */dy/, a sound difficult for Sabines to produce (as
> > theirs had been completely assibilated), so they substituted
> > /y/. On the other hand their */l/ had been reduced to a voiced
> > dental tap in some positions (as we actually see with South Picene
> > <kduÃú> = Lat. <clueo:> 'I am called'), so they hypercorrected
> > Latin */d/ to a lateralized dental which Romans heard as /l/.
> > Such words as <le:vir>, <lachrima>, and <lympha> are thus
> > Sabino-Latinisms, not true Sabinisms. The aspiration in the last
> > two (and in <pulcher>, <sulphur>, <triumphus>, and a few others)
> > is in my view due to another hypercorrection. <Publius> and
> > <publicus> with -bl- for earlier -pl- are true Sabinisms (a similar
> > voicing in such clusters occurred in Oscan), so the Sabines when
> > speaking Latin tended to devoice the clusters, as in <scintilla>
> > beside Roman <scindula>, and the process was carried in the same
> > direction with originally unvoiced stops clustered against liquids
> > or nasals, producing the aspiration.
> >
> > DGK
> >
> > > ###The Day-Killer-Man sed:
> > > ________________________________
> > > No, I believe *dei-w- and *dei-n- were originally distinguished
> > > in meaning. I suspect the Jovian reformation commandeered *deiw-
> > > 'bright' (applied as an epithet to the moon, etc.) and replaced
> > > the old name of the daytime sky-god, *dein-, while elevating him
> > > to the position of supreme deity. I regard Etruscan as providing
> > > a clouded window into the pre-Jovian state of affairs; while it
> > > is not an IE language, it contains loanwords from one or more
> > > pre-Italic IE languages, and some of its divine names can be
> > > explained this way. Etr. Tin was identified with Zeus, and Tiu
> > > Tiv was the Moon (also an appellative 'month'). I consider
> > > these to have been borrowed from *dein- and *deiw-. Also Etr.
> > > Usil 'the Sun' corresponds to Sabine <ausel> and presumably
> > > reflects pre-Jovian *h2ews-el-. My view is that the first
> > > IE-speakers to reach this area had not been influenced by the
> > > Jovian reformation, and they converted the Etruscans to this
> > > older form of IE religion. Centuries later, this religion was
> > > Hellenized, and that is what we find on mirror-scenes and the
> > > like, but some pre-Jovian relics are still identifiable.
> >
> > > *** Rick sez:
> > > There does seem to be a lot in Etruscan that looks like IE. Some
> > > have speculated that it was a congener of IE that picked up so
> > > much non-IE baggage that it became either a Mischsprache or a
> > > Creole. It is sometimes seen as a Nostratic member, despite
> > > attempts by others to link it to N. Caucasian et al. I'd like to
> > > hear your views, perhaps over at Nostratic List.
> > > . . .
> > >
> > Discussion of recognizable pre-Italic IE loanwords in Etruscan is
> > certainly appropriate here. I should rework what I posted on this
> > matter to sci.lang 8 years ago.
> >
> > As to further discussion of the affinities of Etruscan, it will
> > probably be 2 or 3 more years before I have the material
> > sufficiently organized for posting anything over at Nostratic-L.
>
> Ernout-Meillet:
>
> 'ie:iÅ«nus, -a, -um (iÄiÅ«nus dans Plaute, cf. IÄnuarius > Ie:nuarius. Lindsay, Lat. Spr., p. 19) : qui est à jeun, affamé; de là "maigre, sec, pauvre, etc. ", M.L.4582. Sur ie:iÅ«num "intestin grêle", v. Celse, 4,1 et Isid., 9,19, 65.
> De là :
> ie:iūnium n. "jeûne" comme (in)fortūnium, pecūnia, M.L. 4581a; celt.: irl. óine, cét-óίn;
> ie:iÅ«nitÄs, comme ÅpportÅ«nitÄs;
> ie:iÅ«niÅsus (Pl.) comme pecÅ«niÅsus.
> basse époque apparaît dans la 1. de l'Ãglise
> ie:iÅ«nÅ, -Äs (et ie:iÅ«nor) "jeûner" et ses dérivés, M.L.4581; et 2670 *disie:iÅ«nÄre;
> ie:iÅ«nidicus (Gell. ), traduction de `ιÏÏνολÏγοÏ.
> Ie:iūnus est sans doute en rapport avec le verbe:
> ientÅ (iantÅ), -Äs et
> ie:ientÅ (iÄientÅ):
> faire son premier déjeuner; d'où
> ie:ientÄculum, (iÄ-); ientÄculum (ian-, P.F.473,1).
> Les mss. se partagent entre les formes en -a- et les formes en -e-, et les formes à redoublement, et les formes sans redoublement, cf.
> Non. 126, 8sqq.,
> Plaut. Curc. 73;
> Suét. Vit. 7,3 et 13,
> v. Skutsch, ALLG 7, 527.
> De même les formes romanes remontent à ientÄre et iantÄre, M.L.4584, et Einf.3, p.158.
>
> Aucune des étymologies proposées s'est établie. La longue initiale
> eut peut-être une longue de "position", comme sans maiior, et faut-il
> lire ieiiūnus.'