From: Torsten
Message: 66560
Date: 2010-09-08
>Frankly, how does this stated opinion rhyme with your initial
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > I wondered if there was once in Latin a situation where the
> > descendant of PIE *j (zero grade of *i) had two socio-allophones:
> > a 'sacred' *j, and
> > a 'profane' *d3,
> >
> > and that the names of some gods by hypercorrection got *j- for
> > PIE *d-j- > *dj-
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(mythology)#Etymology
> >
> > Ernout-Meillet
> > 'Diana, -ae
> > (DÄ«Äna, Ov.M.8,353;.
> > DÄ«viÄna, Varron, si ce n'est pas une reconstruction étymologique '
> > sans réalité;
> > IÄna LÅ«na, forme attribuée aux rÅ«sticÄ« par Varron, R.R.1,37,3)
> > f.: Diane, déesse nocturne, c.-à -d. Lune:
> > Dianam autem et Lunam eandem esse putant, Cic., N.D.2,68;
> > proprement "la lumineuse",
> > dicta quia noctu quasi diem efficerat, Cic., ibid.3,69;
> > cf. Iuppiter DiÄnus.
> > Diane est la déesse qui préside aux opérations magiques, et son
> > nom est demeuré dans les langues romanes avec le sens de "fée,
> > sorcière", etc., M.L. 2624. Sans doute dérivé de dīus par un
> > intermédiaire *dīuius?; cf. étr. tiv; la scansion d'Ovide a gardé
> > la quantité ancienne.
> > ...
> >
> > diū, dius (ū?): pendant le jour.
> > Ancien cas de die:s (v. ce mot) conservé dans la locution noctū
> > diūque (usité seulement chez les archaïques et les archaïsants),
> > et dans interdiū, plus tard interdie: d'après hodie:, etc.
> > Il est probable que noctū a été fait d'après diū "de jour". Mais
> > le dérivé diurnus, fait sur diu-, doit l'avoir été d'après
> > nocturnus, cf. gr. νÏκÏÏp "de nuit", νÏκÏεÏοÏ, Î½Ï ÎºÏεÏινÏÏ
> > "nocturne".
> > dius: même sens que le précédent, 2 ex. dans la locution noctū
> > diusque Pl., Mer.882, Tit., Com.13. On a aussi interdius, perdius
> > (Gell., fait secondairement sur pernox). Dius peut être un génitif
> > (cf. l'emploi de noctis, Î½Ï ÎºÏÏÏ et les génitifs skr. diváh., gr.
> > δι(F)ÏÏ), ou une formation analogique, comme le génitif skr.
> > dyÏh..
> > V. die:s.'
> >
> > Why else *djou- -> Jou- in Jupiter and diu- otherwise?
>
> Why on Earth would Varro's country bumpkins use a "sacred
> sociolect", with <Ja:na> for Roman Latin <Dia:na>? I think instead
> we should be looking at a Sabine Latin dialect (not Sabine itself,
> just as Irish English is not Irish itself). The gemination of
> <Juppiter> beside expected *Diu:piter (from the IE vocative) has
> parallels in <futtilis> 'easily emptied, leaky, useless' beside
> <fu:tilis> and <vitta> 'band, ribbon, fillet' beside expected
> *vi:ta. These two words are hardly "sacred"; probably they come
> from the same rustic Sabinizing dialect as <Ja:na>. Obviously
> <Ja:nus>, name of the god of transitions, is based on IE *yeh2- 'to
> go from one place to another' and has no etymological connection
> with <Dia:na>, but confusion had already arisen in late antiquity
> due to the rustic form <Ja:na>.
>
> Varro says "arae Sabinam linguam olent" which I take to mean not
> that the sacrificial priests spoke Sabine, but that they used a
> Sabinizing dialect of Latin with technical terms derived from
> Sabine. I have argued elsewhere that <sulphur>, <mamphur>, and
> <scintilla> owe their peculiar consonantism to this dialect, these
> words originally denoting objects used in the fire-starting ritual
> (and I am now inclined to add <ra:menta> to this group). In my view
> Sabine Latin was used by the sacrificial priests, by a segment of
> the Roman underclass, and by certain rustics, but I have found no
> concrete evidence of differentiation among the three sub-dialects.
> > The 'profane' allophone *d3 would then have become the norm inI think they're not. Semantics-less 'extensions' should not be used in the description of a language. I think it's *-eÅ (and a Rozwadowski's change variant *daÅ- in Germanic *dag- etc ?), which showns it's non-IE.
> > that late Latin from which the Romance languages (minus Romanian?)
> > developed.
> >
> > Under die:s in Ernout-Meillet, I found
> > 'D'une racine *dei- "briller" (dans skr. ádīdet "il brillait"),
> > qui est médiocrement attestée, l'indo-européen avait deux
> > formations comportant des élargissements,
> > l'une en *-eu-, désignant le "ciel lumineux", le "jour"
> > (considérés comme des forces actives, divines),
> > l'autre en *-en-, qui a subsisté seulement au sens de "jour".
> > Les deux sens ont subsisté en latin.'
> >
> > Which made me wonder if it could be reduced to one root,
> > *diÅ which > *diw- and *din- (*Å > w and n happens in Baltic
> > Finnic).
> >
> > But then I discovered I already proposed that
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65539
> >
> > The Altaic part of that root:
> > http://tinyurl.com/27souut
> > http://tinyurl.com/2eo76gh
> >
> > It makes one wonder whether the Sky God
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_Father
> > in Indo-European is a loan from the outside (as he was in Altaic)?
>
> I think E-M are on the right track with root-extensions.
> Whether or not the Sky Father's "Jovian" religion came from outsideAnything cluttered with laryngeals gets me suspicious of origin elsewhere. If the language of *saÅ-l- "hole (in the sky"
> IE, scattered pieces of evidence point to an earlier solar religion.
> I suspect that Jovian evangelists insisted, using whatever force
> they found necessary, that the Sun was not a god but a mere
> inanimate object. And the old name for the Sun, *h2aws-el- 'the
> Shining One' vel sim., was replaced by a tabuistic metathetic form
> *sah2w-el-, originally construed in the neuter. But survivals of
> the old system persist in Lat. <auster>, discussed earlier, Sab.
> <ausel> 'the Sun' (according to Festus the source of the gentilicium
> <Aurelius>), and the relics of south-facing augury, which was
> superseded by east-facing augury under the Jovian system.
>