Res: Res: [tied] Re: (was Latin Honor < ?) Bestia

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:

> ________________________________
> From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>

>
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@ .> wrote:
>
> > *lo:cos ? > locusta (cf. lacerta? <*lacus, *laceris)
> Spanish langusta "locust, lobster" must be from something similar
> >
> > It's curious the looping derivation:
> >
> > subst. modus > adj. modestus > subst. modestia
> > subst. honor > adj. honestus > subst. honestitas
> >
> Douglas
> >
> > and if you have a sense of humor, you can add langosta and
> > mangosta --I'm guessing they're the same in Portuguese as in
> > Spanish
>
> Joao
>
> > langosta must be in Portuguese <lagosta> "lobster"
> > mangosta must be <mangusto> "mongoose" or <mangosta~o / mangostão
> > a kind of Asian fruit
>
> I looked at the word and went bananas again.
> Now suppose there once was a word
> *LaN- (L = voiceless l, becoming (s)tl-, t-, l-) meaning
> 1) "saltwater-logged hole dug in the beach used for keeping fish
> alive";
> 2) "such a hole used to salt and dry fish (brine pit)";
> 3) "its contents"
>
> then you could derive from it (using the
> *aN -> -a:-/-ab-/-amb- /-ag-/-ank- /-u:-/-ub- /-umb-/-ug- /-unk-
> etc rule)
>
> Gmc *leg- "lay" (cf. German 'einlegen' "pickle"),

German Lake
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salzlake
English version
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brining
(BTW pickle, Pökel can't be Germanic; p-)
Da. lave mad, Sw. laga mat "cook"
(the v. 'lave' later spread in Da. in the sense "fix, do").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutefisk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lye
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming
Da. tang "seaweed"
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_%28alge%29
English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae
Da. tangloppe (Gammarus locusta)
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangloppe
pictures
http://tinyurl.com/yc5k63s
cf.
Dansk Etymologisk Ordbog
'I. loppe en-, ODa. loppæ, Norw. loppe, Sw. loppa;
OE loppe, Eng. lop is probably borrowed from Nord. The origin of the word is debated:
1. From the root in MHG, Germ. lüpfen 'lift up' rel. to loft. â€"
2. Literally 'little lump', rel. to eg
Da. dial. lubbe 'thick fish of the cod family',
Norw. lubb, lubbe 'chubby, round person or animal',
Sw. lubb 'bream',
ON lubba 'big cod';
from the same root as slubre "slobber".
â€" cf. II. loppe.
II. loppe v. 'catch fleas; beat up, castigate; make work hard';
Norw. id.,
Sw. loppa, Eng. dial. lop; formed from I. loppe.'

UEW
'l´8mæ or ð´8mæ 'small fly or midge/mosquito' FU
? Mari (Wichm.: FUF 12: 132)
KB l&me, J lumej, M lumij, B lume 'a very small fly' |

Udmurt (Wichm.: FUF 12: 131)
G J MU l´um 'very small yellowish fly (G), horse-fly (J MU) |

Mansi (Kann.-Liim.: MSFOu. 109: 290) KU l´om&j,
(Kann.-Liim.: MSFOu. 109: 291) KM l´o:m&j,
(Kann.-Liim.: MSFOu. 134: 15) P l´am&j,
(Kann.: FUF 18: 78) P l´om&j, So. l´u:mu:j,
(Kann.-Liim.: MSFOu. 114: 18) So. l´o:muj 'midge/mosquito'.

Mari j and Mansi &j are deriv. suffixes.
Mansi So. u:j, uj in l´u:mu:j, l´o:muj might have been influenced by
u:j 'animal'.

In case the anlauting l in Mari l&me comes from dissimilation of earlier *n, this word belongs in another context
(s. *nume (*nome) 'small fly or midge/mosquito' FP).

Because of Mansi we must posit proto-Mansi
*a: (KM KU So.),
*a (P) and
*u: (So.).
The inter-dialectal vowel correspondences may bew explained by a
proto-Mansi alternation *a: ~ *a and *a: ~ *u:.
Setälä (FUFA 12: 16, JSFOu. 30/5: 50) and Wichmann (FUF 12: 132) have, positing original *ð´, placed the sporadically attested
Est. (dial.) tümm (gen. tümmi) 'big mosquito'
here. The word can because of the ü not be placed with the above words.
Setälä: FUFA 12: 16, JSFOu. 30/5: 50; Wichmann: FUF 12: 131.'

OK, so anlaut alternation ð-/l- and root vowel alternation a:/a/u:. I think I'll claim that one for *LuN-.

> IE *dhe(gh)- and Uralic teke- "put down"
> Latin stlocus -> locus "place"
> Latin *stla:t- (stlatt-) -> la:tus "spread out"
> Latin lacus "lake"
> Latin lucus ("hole" ->) -> "clearing" -> "grove"
> Latin lanx "scalepan of scales" (cf bi-lanx and balance)
> Latin longus (as "laid down", cf Engl. log, ON lag)

UEW
'l8ppæ 2 'fallen log, driftwood, debris floating on the water' FU

? Saami (Frпs) N lappad 'long log placed on both sides of the fire to stop it from spreading' |

Mari
(Beke, inf. Berlіczki: NyK. 84: 393)
KB l&^p&^, &^l&^p 'driftwood, logs carried by flooding, branches, straw, hay etc' |

Komi SI lep
'driftwood logjam (in small rivers or in brooks, you can't sail though it) (S),
'driftwod, brush drifting on the water or the like (I)'.
PO lup 'wind-felled logs (which block a river)' |

Mansi (WV 115) TJ lo:pe:, KU P lu:p, So. lupi 'windfall',
(Munk.: KSz. 7: 254) 'a fallen log; a log carried away by the water',
(ibd.) N lu:pis´ 'a place where many logs carried by the river and other flooding flotsam heaped up'

Hung. láp 'swamp, swampy meadow;
(dial.) reed, straw and hay carried away during flooding later deposited on a river bank;
(dial.) floating swamp island;
(dial.) raft'.

Whether the Saami word belongs here is uncertain for semantic reasons; its ending -ad may be a deriv. suffix.

The Hung. word was because of its sense 'swamp, swampy meadow' by several researchers (MUSz. 683; Munkácsi: Ethn. 4: 183 [o: 283], KSz. 7: 252, 253; Gombocz: NyK39: 238; Wichmann: FUF 11: 182; Setäla: FUFA 12: 8; NyH7; Toivoniіn: FUF 20: 54; SzófSz.; FUV; SKES) placed with the word family
*lampe 'puddle; pond; swamp' U.
This is unlikely, for phonetic reasons (the assumption of *mpp is unfounded) and also semantically not unobjectionable. For phonetic and semantic reasons is also the connection of
Hung. láp and láb 'foot'
(Mészöi.y: s. literature) not acceptable. On
Hung. láb s.
*luwe 'bone' U and
*l8mpæ 'flat, wide surface (of the hand or th foot)' U.

Erroneously to this Hung. dial. vápa (< lápa) 'hollow, depression'
(Halász: Nyr. 10: 353; Gombocz: NyK 39: 238), which is a Slavic loanword (Kniezsa, SzlJSz. 547).

Munkácsi: KSz. 7: 253; Toivonen: FUF 15: 71; Uotila: MSFOu. 65: 410; Mészöly: SzcgF 3: 87; MNyv. 1: 228, 234â€"6; SzófSz.; N. Sebestyén: NyK 53: 34, ALH 3: 304; ESK, MSzFgrE; TESz.; Rédei: NyK 75: 268; Bereczki: NyK 84: 393.'

> Latin *stlei-t- -> *li:-t-
> "débat juridique dans lequel chacune des deux parties produit ses
> témoins devant le juge" (ie. lay down their argument)
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=l&p= 15
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/56302
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/56283
> (the contents!)
> Latin lau-, lou- "wash", lu:tum "clay"
> Ernout-Meillet
> 'langueo:, -e:s, -ui: (lanxi: tardif), -e:re:
> languir, être alangui, affaissé,
> - Ancien (Lucil.), usuel, classique. M.L.4889.
> Formes nominales et dérivés:
> languor: langueur (depuis Pl., class.), M.L.4891;
> languidus: languissant, M.L.4890;
> languidulus; langue:do:, languita:s; langue:tu:do: ;
> langue:sco:, -is: s'alanguir;
> langue:facio: (Cic, Leg.2,15,38, incitare languetes et languefacere
> excitatos);
> languificus (Quint. Cic.);
> e:langueo:, e:langue:sco: , e:languidus: formes renforcées à l'aide
> du préverbe e:- qui appartiennent à la latinité impériale.
> - Les formes romanes de caractère "populaire" sont rares (roumain,
> macéd., logoud. ).
> La racine est sans doute la même que celle de laxus (v.ce mot). Le
> grec en a, semble-t-il, des formes à infixe nasal expressif dans
> des dérivés:
> lággo:n "traînard",
> laggázo: "je me relâche, je me détache", peut-être
> laggeúei: pheúgei Hes.
> Outre laggeúei, il y a un élargissement -u- dans
> v.isl. slokkua "s'éteindre".
> Groupe de type populaire.'
> see
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61680
> "throw water on"
> laqueus "noose, trap"
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62590
> Uralic lampe "puddle, pond, swamp"
> Lat. Ligus "Ligurian", ligusticum, ligustinus
> Engl. tank etc.
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=tank&searchmode=none
> but cf. Latin stagnum "pond"
> Da. dunk "can, container"
> and of course all the *duN- "put into water" (dump, dunk, dip etc)
> words, plus my earlier *LuN- "all of it" etc etc word
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65503
> wouldn't be incompatible with it, to wit
> http://www.harappa.com/fisher/19.html
>
> In other words, a locust or langouste lives in your own brine lacus.
>
> Torsten
> I think you got it

Ah, thank you.

> --but langosta also means "locust" and given
> English locust, this looks like the primary meaning

Maybe the Romans want a word on that subject:

'locusta, -ae f,(lucusta, Varr., L.L.7, 39 et Gloss., v. Thes. Gloss. emend., s.u., cf. purpura, rutundus):
1° sauterelle [grasshopper, cf saute "jump"];
2° langouste (de même dans certains parlers français, la crevette se dit "sauterelle", cf. Littré, s.u. § 3).
Pour le double sens, cf. gr. kárabos "escarbot" et "langouste". La quantité de la voyelle de la syllabe initiale est flottante. Juvénal 1,71, scande Lo:custa (Lu:-), avec o:, comme nom propre; mais locusta en tant que nom commun a le plus souvent o, du reste chez des auteurs tardifs, cf. Quicherat, Thes. poet., s.u. Le mètre du v. de Naevius, 63 W.Morel, atque prius pariet lucusta lucam bouem est obscur. La
quantité est indéterminable dans Pl., Men. 924.

Les formes romanes supposent aussi *lacusta (leçon de B2 dans Plaute, Men. 924), cf.M.L.5098. Einf.3, 180. Du reste le mot a subi toute sorte dé déformations. Le fr. langouste, l'esp. et le prov. langosta supposent une forme avec n, déformation populaire d'après longus? cf. Isid. Or. 12,8,19 = locusta quod pedibus sit longis ueluti hasta; le germ.: v. angl. lopust, lopestre suppose *lopostra.
Dérivés tardifs:
lo:custi:nus, lo:custula (Gl.).
Le rapprochement avec
lit. lekiû, le.~kti "voler" et gr.
le:ka~n "sauter",
láks "avec le talon",
laktízo: "je frappe du talon, je rue"
a été fait souvent, et le sens le suggère. Le vocalisme n'est pas déterminable; la forme serait isolée; sur l'étymologie de pareils mots on ne peut rien préciser.'

> You coupld probably add "slack" and "law" to your "lay down" words

Slack:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/54560