--- In
cybalist@... s.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
>
> --- In
cybalist@... s.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@> wrote:
> >
> > On 2008-12-21 01:32, tgpedersen wrote:
> >
> > > If *tómos/*tomós pairs are made from verbal stems only, then
> > > their existence are not relevant to Schaffner's list, which
> > > consists almost exclusively of non-verbal stems.
> >
> > A few are, e.g. *xanx/Ga- < *k^onk-o- (as for the underlying
> > verb, see Goth. ha:han, Ved. s'ankate, Hitt. ka:nki, Lat.
> > cunctor), and there may be others in the book. Unfortunately, I
> > haven't got a copy of my own and shall have to go to the library
> > to check the details. I may be able to do so on Tuesday, but if I
> > don't find the time, the matter will have to wait till after the
> > Christmas break.
>
> Aha. I'll see if I can get a copy too.
And I did and OCR'ed it, but there's not much interesting stuff in it on PGmc. *xanxista- : *xangista- "Hengst", so I'll leave that out.
> > > In that message you call woghos and tomos deverbative nouns. I
> > > understand that as if you are saying *tomos is derived from a
> > > verbal stem. If you meant something else, then what? And if on
> > > the other hand you agree that *tómos/*tomós are derived from
> > > a verbal stem, do you have an example of a similar pair derived
>
> > from a non-verbal stem?
> >
> > The same apophonic immobility can be seen in words with PIE *a,
> > like *xaf/Bra- < *kapro- or *xanx/Gista- < *k^ank-ist(h2) -o-,
> > which, even if not PIE, are at any rate pre-Gmc., with external
> > cognates in several branches, and in those that are _certainly_
> > PIE, like *staþla-/*stað la (> *stalla-) < *st(a)h2-tlom.
>
> Certainly?
>
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/43070>
> > In other words, it doesn't matter where the *a's come from.
>
> Your one example of a bona fide IE word is *staþla-/*stað la-. And
> even that's not certain.
>
>
> BTW, from Møller VISW
> '1 k^-nk- "hangen, hängen" (< voridg. k^-n-g-, intr.
k^ánag-),
> got. ahd. ha:han ags. ho:n trans. "hängen",
> intr. ahd. hange:n mhd. hangen an. hanga ags. hongian "hangen",
> sanskr. s^an,ka-te: "(suspensus est, >) schwankt, zweifelt, ist
> besorgt",
> s^an,ká : "Zweifel, Besorgnis, Furcht",
> s^an,kita- "besorgt, ängstlich vor",
> lat. cunctor "kann mich nicht entschließen, zaudere, zage",
> an. hæ:tta "gefährden, riskieren, wagen", (mit a:)
> "von etwas abhängig sein lassen, es auf etwas ankommen lassen";
>
> : idg. k^-n-g- (< voridg.-semit. k^-n-G.-) in
> ahd. henchen mhd. henken "henken";
> dieses k^-ng-
> = semit. s^-n-k.- (k. < ursemit. G.),
> arab. s^anak.a "ligavit, alligavit,
> he bound (the camel with the s^ina:k.),
> he curbed (the camel) by means of his zima:m (or nose-rein),
> he bound (the head of the beast) to the head of a tree or to an
>
elevated peg so that his neck became extended,
> he suspended (the waterskin) to a peg",
> (nachklassisch s^anak.a > neuarab. s^enek. "he hanged (him) by the
> neck till he died",
> mis^na-k.atuN > neuarab. mes^nak.a "a gallows",
> Part. mas^nu:k.uN "put to death by being hanged"),
> intr. s^anik.a "he became attached (to a thing)",
> syr. senek. 2indiguit", Aph. "indigere fecit, induxit, coegit",
> arab. s^anak.uN "the heart's longing for a thing (Hangen und
> Langen)",
> sina:k.uN "any cord by which a thing is suspended, the suspensory
> cord of a waterskin".'
>
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/45244>
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/
cybalist/ message/45248>
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/45262>
>
> If this comparison refers to something real, it means that the
> *xanx- etc root means not "hang" as in "suspend in the air" but
> primarily "tie (to something)" (note that hangings were first done
> by bending a flexible tree down to the ground, tie the culprit by
> the neck to the tree and then letting go of the tree). That means
> that xanx-ist- etc might have been a paraveredus, a spare horse,
> led by a rope (whatever the last element of the composite is.
> Why 'spare horse'? Seems that was the only way to think of a horse
> minus man in the saddle, in times of war.
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/49417UEW:
'c^onc^e 'Strick, Schnur (des Netzes)' FU
? Lapp. (Lind.-Öhrl.) tsuotse
'extremitas sagenae piscatoriae sive pars ultima',
L suohttse:: suohttse: (stielas)
'das »Tuch« (Teilstück, stielas) eines Zugnetzes, das an den Enden der beiden Flügel angebracht ist',
K (T. I. Itk., WbKKlp. 639) Kld. tsu:ot,t,s,, Ko. Not. tsu&^ot,´t,s, E
'Verknotung zwischen dem Obersimm-Ende des Schleppnetzes und dem Endstrick (von zwei Ösen gebildet)'
(> finn. suotsa 'silmukka, joka yhdistää verkon paulan toiseen paulaan t. nuottaköyteen; Schlinge, die die Schnur des Netzes mit der anderen Schnur od. mit dem Strick des Zugnetzes verknüpft') |
?ostj. (952)
V c^on.c^&G, DN c^unc^&, Ni. s^uns^& 'Seil (V DN Ni.), Strick, Schnur (DN)'.
Ostj. &G ist Ableitungssuffix.
Zur lapp.-ostj. Bedeutungsentsprech ung
vgl.
finn. siula 'äußerer Teil des Netzes' ~ lapp. L siulo- 'Schnur aus Sehnenfasern' ;
schwed.-dän. garn 'Garn' ~ 'Netz'.
Die Zusammenstellung ist wegen der entfernten Verwandtschaft unsicher.
Toivonen (FUF 19:114) stellt finn. huntu 'weibliches Kopftuch' hierher. Der Zusammenstellung steht zwar lautlich nichts im Wege, doch ist sie aus semantischen Gründen abzulehnen.
Toivonen: FUF 19:114, SitzFak. 1949:181;
E. Itkonen: Vir. 1936:295;
FUV;
Steinitz, DEWO 285—6;
SKES.'.
And the -est- part would then have been the Venetic -est- adjectivising suffix.
A new etymology: *aN-est- -> Aest- "those on the water".
Torsten
