From: gprosti
Message: 65845
Date: 2010-02-12
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
>
> > > > What's the official story of the nominative -s of kuningas
> > >
> > > It's borrowed from Germanic *kunniNga-z and the final -s is not a
> > > nom. marker in Finnish.
> >
> > You left out lammas, which is a neuter, of obscure origin, in Germanic, thus without nom. -s, but an s-stem, and which inflects to the same pattern as kuningas, that of the vieras declension:
>
> The suffix -as develop'd to a sort of "loanword suffix" in Finnic, and later to a general diminutiv; Livonian is particularly fond of it.
>
>
> > which has, according to Wiktionary, 517 members in Finnish, the first 200 here:
> > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_vieras-type_nominals
> >
> >
> > What's going on here? They can't all be loans, all 517 of them, or?
>
> Most of those are recent formations utilizing the adjectival suffix -kas, derived from the Uralic diminutiv -kka by addition of -(a)s (or perhaps extracted from words such as _hurskas_, _rikas_.) A few have a similar -lias, -las.
>
> Weeding those out, we indeed have mostly loans (Gmc reconstructions not mine):
>
> hansikas <~ Swedish handske
> tikkaat <~ tika-puut < Old Swedish stige
> tyyris < ONo dýr
> verstas <~ Swedish verkstad
> ---
> allas < Gmc *aldoon
> altis < Gmc *alTijaz
> harras < Gmc *hardaz
> hauras < Gmc *sauraz
> hurskas < Gmc *xurskaz
> kallis ~ Gmc? Low German hall 'dry'
> kangas < Gmc *gangaz
> kaplas < Gmc *kablaz (also: kapula)
> karvas < Gmc *xarwaz
> katras ~ Gmc? 'gather' etc.
> kaunis < Gmc *skauniz
> kauris < Gmc *xafraz
> kuningas < Gmc *kuningaz
> keidas < Gmc *skaidaz
> keihäs < Gmc *gaizaz
> lammas < Gmc *lambaz
> mallas < Gmc *maltaz
> paljas ~ Gmc? *failjaz > Ger. feil (bad semantics)
> parras < Gmc *bardaz
> patsas ~ Gmc *bandsaz, or hypoth. *badjaz
> porras < Gmc *bordaz
> raavas < Gmc *Trawwaz
> rahvas < variant of the prev.
> rakas < Gmc *frakaz
> reipas < Gmc *reifaz
> rengas < Gmc *xrengaz
> rikas < Gmc *riikja-
> ruhtinas < Gmc *druxtinaz
> ruumis ~ Gmc *skruma ?
> ryväs ~ Gmc *drufa- ? (cf. newer rypäle)
> rypäs < var. of the prev.
> räystäs < Gmc *xrausta- (or rather, from a later Scand. form)
> sairas < Gmc *sairaz
> tehdas < Gmc *stixtaz (or older IE)
> teuras < Gmc *Teuraz, *steuraz
> tiivis < Gmc *stiifaz
> valas < Gmc *xwalaz
> valtias < valta < Gmc *walda
> vannas < Gmc *wanduz
> vantus < Scand. *wantuz
> varas < Gmc *wargaz
> varras < Gmc *wardaz (or derived in F. from U. *warti, which may be < IE)
> vauras < Gmc *wabraz
> viisas < Gmc *wiisaz
> äyräs < Gmc *aaferaz (or *auraz)
> ---
> ankerias < Baltic *angurjas
> ansas < Baltic *ansVs
> hammas < Baltic *Zambas
> hirvas < Baltic *Sirvis
> irstas ~ Baltic *irta- "loose"?
> karsas < Baltic, cf. Li. skẽrsas
> kiivas < Baltic, cf. Li. gývas
> kirves < Baltic *kirvis
> kitsas ~ Baltic? Li. gídis (or ~ onomatopoetic kitise-?)
> oinas < Baltic, cf. Li. ãvinas
> rastas < Baltic, cf. La. strazds
> ratas < Baltic *ratas
> ruis < Baltic *rugiz
> seiväs < Baltic, cf. Li. stíebas
> tuulas < Baltic, cf. La. dũlis
> vehmas < Baltic, cf. Li. veùmas
> äes < Baltic, cf. La. ecēas
> ---
> ies < considered Slavic; clearly IE anyway ("yoke")
> piiras < alt. of common Finnic piirakka < Russian
> saapas < alt. of common Finnic *saappaka < Russian
> tahdas < considered Slavic (~ tahna, tahma)
> ---
> eväs < pre-Baltic *jevos?
> marras < PIA *mrtas (or therearound)
> messias < Latin (late, inflection affected by the -a-)
> naaras < II? ~ Sansk. nārī
> porsas < PIE or pre-IA (also in Mordvinic, Permic)
> puhdas < PIE *puHtos?? (common Finnic)
> taivas < PIA *daivas (if not Gmc *teiwaz + semantic shift to "sky") (common Finnic)
> ---
> kinnas < ?? (Latvian cimds < Livonian)
> kirkas < ?? (~ kirku- "to scream")
> kunnas < ?? (~ kunnar)
> oas < ?? (common Finnic, ~ oka)
> pensas < ?? (common Finnic, also Samic)
> pylväs < ?? (common Finnic *pylvä)
> runsas < ??
> sees < ??
> uljas < ??
> uuras < ?? (~ uuttera, Estonian udris)
> valmis < ??
> valpas < ?? (immediately from < valvoa)
> varvas < ?? (Common Finnic *varpa)
> ---
> köngäs < Samic *keawNés
> ---
> From Uralic roots:
> (generally diminutiv variants particular to Finnish)
> eräs < erä (also in Karelian & Veps)
> kalvas < kalpea
> kiuas < kivi-kasa
> koiras < koira
> kärkäs < kärki
> lipas < lippa (also in K&V)
> lounas < louna
> mätäs < *mäktä (common Finnic)
> nauris < *nakra (common Finnic)
> olas < olka
> opas < backformation from opasta- < oppi
> oras < ora (common Finnic, Liv. voruuks)
> paras < para (possibly < IE, but no original -s in Uralic)
> puras < pura (alt. of purasin)
> saalis < saada (common Finnic)
> sitkas < sitkeä
> tupas < tuppo
> typäs < alt. of prev.
> töyräs < contamin. of äyräs + törmä
> uros < uro
> vieras < vieri (common Finnic)
> ylväs < ylpeä < ylä
> ---
> (not in my etymol. dictonary)
> havas
> kalkas (probably onomatop. + -kas)
> kaskas
> kuhilas
> kynnäs (looks like a suffix alternant of kynnys "threshold")
> laupias (~ laupea)
> pallas (usually inflects as -kse-)
> rietas (~ riehua, rivo)
> rynnäs (from rinta + affectiv labialization?)
> turilas
>
> A large number of the Germanic ones have limited distribution (generally only North Finnic, or Finnish proper), so even if they have a non-IE origin in Gmc, I'd bet Finnish got them from Gmc anyway. Exceptions with wider distribution: hauras, kangas, karvas, kaunis, kauris, kuningas, paljas, parras, patsas, rengas, rikas, ryväs, ryväs, teuras, äyräs.
>
> I'll cut it here. Happy analyzing!
>
>
> > And what's the deal with the 'literary genitive plural form kuningasten' which keeps the -s suffix?
> > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kuningas
>
> That's because the -s is historically present in all forms of the paradigm:
> kuningas : kuningas-en : kuningas-et : kuningas-et-en
>
> Lenition s > h > 0 medially in unstress'd syllables is regular. So certainly not a Finnic nominativ marker!
>
>
> > BTW, since the IE m.nom.sg *-s and the IE s-stem *-s- seem to have the same reflection in Finnish, are they somehow reælated in IE,
>
> > Torsten
>
> Why should that be? They've the same reflection in Finnish because of the phonetical similarity.
>
> John Vertical
>