From: johnvertical@...
Message: 65838
Date: 2010-02-11
> > > but since suoma-lainen means 'Finnlander' and suo-maa-lainen would mean 'fenlander', I'm not willing to accept coincidence.Not relevant as long as none of them have /i/.
> >
> > Even if it's not, it doesn't mean those are correct etymologies: given "Finn" for northern barbarians in general (attested much before "Finland"), and a tribe "suomalaiset" who call fens "suo", there's a good motivation to then link the two, regardless of the actual etymologies.
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that we have no i-variants of "fen" also supports the conclusion that the association of fens and Finns is a folk etymology.
>
> It gives no ev. either way. There are many known variants for
> 'fen'
> and more in other IE branches,Not relevant as none of those has Grimm's Law.
> and no way of knowing which existed with the exactly equivalent meaning at the time (or why one would be chosen over others if their meanings overlapped) as the name for 'Finland' if it did mean 'Fenland' before its original meaning was forgotten.I'm not contesting that suo-maa is a possible etymology, but at any rate, appeals to lack of evidence don't quite work for estabilishing "near certainty". The way to do that would be to argue *against* the contending etymologies. (In addition to the IE loanwords, comparisions have been drawn to suomu "scale"; suoda "to allow, to provide".)
> > Did I mention yet that while "suo" is the most general word for a swamp, "fen" is not? "Suomaalainen" would *not* literally translate as "fenlander", but "swamplander". Given that "fen" rather translates as "letto", perhaps you should be arguing for an identity of Latvians and historical Finns ;)I'm not limiting myself to English. We see the same thing in eg. Swedish (primary: myr, kärr; ) or German (Sumpf) just as well.
>
>
> It's in the Gmc languages that *fan()- meant both (and more); I used the best English equivalent rather than whatever it would have been at the stage of Gmc because I don't know exactly when borrowing occurred, etc., and for simplicity. I used E to show the coincidence, but it is not only in E that it exists.