--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
>
> > > > 'Wing' has the most diverse explanation in DEO, de Vries
> > > > and Skeat.
> > >
> > > Whatever the etymology of the word, you still haven't given
> > > an example of 'side' > 'limb'.
> >
> > But the sense I derive it from is not just "side", but "a body
> > (of people) on the side", and seeing society (= its army) in the
> > image of a body with organs is pretty common, cf.
> > Karin Friederich, The Other Prussia,
> > p. 55
> > 'One of the most widely read tracts of the seventeenth century,
> > which stressed the exclusivity of noble-Sarmatian citizenship,
> > was the anonymous 1671 eulogy of the Commonwealth, Domina Palatii
> > - Regina Libertas. It described the king as the head, the
> > senators as the teeth, the szlachta as the main body with the
> > free vote at its heart, and the commoners as legs and feet, on
> > which the body stands.'
>
> No luck, that's STILL "limb" > "team" and similar metaphoric
> usages. What we would like to see is something along the lines of
> using "regiment" or "company" or "team" or "platoon" to mean "arm"
> or "leg" or "wing" or "hand".
You guys are sending me on a wild goose chase in etymological dictionaries here, since
1) everybody assumes as a matter of course that names of limbs, being somehow fundamental, must have 'arisen' or 'been thought up' first, and
2) since fundamental concepts are used more frequently that cultural ones, they are documented earlier, leading eg. Brian to the seeming conclusion that the limb name 'wing' began being used in a metaphorical sense sometime between the 10th and 14th centuries.
However, there are exceptions:
Mallory:
'HAND
*g^hés-r- 'hand'. [IEW 447 (*g^hesor-); Wat 22 (*ghesor-); GI 707 (*g^hes-r.-); Buck 4.23; BK 220 (*gasy-/*g&sy)]. Lat (from Osc-Umb) hi:r 'hollow of hand', Alb dorë (< *g^he:sr-ex-) 'hand', Grk kheír 'hand', Arm jern 'hand', Hit kissar 'hand', TochA tsar 'hand', TochB s.ar 'hand' (Toch < *s´s.a:r-< **g^heser-). Archaic in morphology and widespread; there is no doubt that we have here the original PIE word for 'hand'.
*g^hós-to-s 'hand'. [IEW 447 (*g^hesto-); GI 707 (*g^hes-tho-); Buck 4.33; BK 220 (*gasy-/*g&sy)].
Lat praesto: (< *prai-hesto:d) 'at hand',
Lith pa-z^aste.~ ~ pa-z^astìs 'arm-pit',
Av zasta- 'hand', OPers dasta- 'hand',
OInd hásta- 'hand'.
A derivative, of at least late PIE date, of the previous entry.
*méxr. (gen. *mx.nós) 'hand'. [IEW 740-741 (*m&-r); GI 707 (*mH.r-/n-(th)-); Buck 4.33].
Lat manus 'hand', Umb manuv-e 'in the hand',
ON mund 'hand',
OE mund '(palm of the) hand, protection',
OHG munt 'hand, protection, guardian' (Gmc < *mn.x-tó-),
Alb marr (< *mar-n(y)e/o-) 'take, grasp',
Grk máre: 'hand',
Hit ma:niyahh- 'hand over'.
Its exact shape is difficult to reconstruct (what is given here seems to be the most likely possibility). Though less well attested, it is clear that we have a word of PIE date. How it may have differed in meaning from *g^hés-r- is unclear. GI have suggested that the underlying meaning of *mexr. was 'hand, power, put into someone's possession', e g , Lat manus 'hand, power' and Hit ma:niyahh- 'hand over, turn power over, rule', ma:niyahhai- 'government, power' This would suggest that *mexr. symbolized or implied 'power' while +g^hés-r- was solely an anatomical term.
*pólxm. (gen. *pl.xmós) 'palm of the hand'
[IEW 806 (*pl.:-ma:), Wat 49 (+pl.&-ma:-), Buck 4 33, BK 49 (*p[h]al-/ *p[h]&l-)]
OIr la:m 'hand', Wels llaw 'hand',
Lat palma 'palm', palam 'openly',
OE folm 'palm, hand', OHG folma 'hand',
Grk paláme: 'palm'.
All of these words are immediately from the derivative +pl.xm-ex- but the archaic underlying morphology speaks of great antiquity within IE. Presumably ultimately a derivative of +pelx- 'flat'.
*dhénr. 'palm (of the hand)'
[IEW 249 (+dhen-), Wat 13 (*dhen-)] OHG tenar 'palm', Grk thénar 'palm, sole of the foot' Though not widely distributed, it looks by its shape to be an old word.
*pólik(o)s 'finger, thumb' (*pólixos 'pertaining to a finger)
[IEW 840-841 (+polo-), Wat 52 (+pol-), Buck 4 34(2), BK 56 (*p[h]al-/*p[h]&l-)]
Lat pollex (with secondary doubling of the -l-) 'thumb',
RusCS palIcI 'thumb', Rus pálec 'finger, toe' (< *poliko-), s^esti-pályj 'six-fingered', bez-pályj 'without fingers',
cf also
ON felma ~ falma 'grope about',
OE fe:lan 'touch, feel, perceive' (> NE feel),
OHG fuolen 'feel' (Gmc < *po:lye/o-),
Bulg palam 'seek',
NPers pa:lidan 'seek', and possibly more distantly
Lat palpo: 'feel'.
Though only found in Slavic and Latin, the similarity in form and identity of meaning strongly suggests at least late PIE status for this word. Certainly no other word for 'finger' looks to be reconstructible for PIE.
*mustí- 'fist' [cf IEW 745 (+meuk^-)]
Av mus^ti- 'fist', OInd mustí- 'fist',
TochB mas´ce (< *muste:is) 'fist'.
Possibly an "easternism" in late PIE.
*pn.(kw)stí- 'fist'
[IEW 839 +pn.ksti-), Wat 49 (*pn.k-sti-), GI 747 (*ph(e)nkho-th-)]
OE fy:st 'fist' (> NE fist),
OHG fu:st 'fist',
Lith kumste (< +punkste) 'fist',
OCS pe,stI 'fist', Rus pjast 'metacarpus'.
Probably a derivative of *penkwe 'five'. Possibly a "westernism" in late PIE.
See also Anatomy, Arm [D Q A ].
Further Readings
Markey, T L (1984)
The grammaticalization and institutionalization of Indo-European hand
JIES 12, 261-292
Pedrero, R (1985[86]) Las nociones de mano, brazo y codo en
indoeuropeo
Ementa 53, 249-267'
(I've substituted /x/ for Mallory's h-sub-x, which is his /h2/ laryngeal.)
In other words, no principle forbids us to assume a metaphorical origin of some term for a limb. Specifically, the *man- root (my reconstruction *maN- (> *mar#, with -n# > -r#, and with > *-aN- > *-an-/*-un-, also needed to expain the ar-/ur- alternation) seems to imply a metaphorical use of an originally 'command' concept.
Cf. on manus
Ernout-Meillet
'manus, -u:s f.(employé surtout au pluriel): main, partie du corps humain; symbole de la force et de l'autorité maritale du uir sur la femme, mulier; de la puissance du pater familia:s; et instrument de lutte, ou de travail: de là, les expressions juridiques, militaires ou techniques;
1° in manu: esse, manu:s iniectio:, manu: mittere, le composé manceps (cette valeur juridique se retrouve en irlandais et en germanique; cf. re:ctus);
2° manum co:nserere, ueni:re ad manu:s (manum), dare manu:s "se rendre", e:minus, comminus;
3° manu: sata, urbs manu: mu:nitissima (opposé à na:tu:ra:), Praxitelis manus; manupretium "salaire"; "façon" (d'un ouvrage, par opposition à "re:s" "matière", cf. Dig.50,16, 13).
Sert à distinguer les deux côtés du corps: laeua:, dextra: manu:. Désigne un objet ressemblant à une main: manus ferrea = khei~r sidera~, et a servi souvent à traduire des expressions techniques du gr. avec khei~r. De l'expression seruus a: manu: (comme a: litteri:s) a été tiré a:manue:nsis "secrétaire" (Suét.), d'où ont été extraits à basse époque manue:nsis "prókheiron" Gl., et admanue:nsis (Cassian.).
Manus, en tant que synonyme de ui:s, ui:re:s, s'est employé comme lui pour désigner dans la langue militaire des "forces", c.-à-d. des troupes. Ce n'est pas, comme on l'enseigne, du sens de "poignée d'hommes" qu'il faut partir: il n'y a pas dans cet emploi de manus d'idée diminutive, cf. Ces., BG 5,37 magnam manum conducere; T.L.30,7 fin, Hasdrubalem propediem affore cum manu haudquaquam contemnenda. - Usité de tout temps. Panroman, M.L.5339. Britt. man.
Dérivés, et composés: manicae f.pl. (= khei~rís; singulier rare): manches, brassards, manchettes, mitaines; grappin; menottes. De là: manicarius, sorte de gladiateur; manica:tus, muni de manches; manicula, manche de charrue. Cf. M.L. 5300 manica (passé en celt.: irl. manic, muinchille, gall. maneg, germ. : v.h.a me.nihha, et en alb. me.nge.; 5303a manicusi, 5303 manicula, 5303a *manicella. Pour la forme, cf. pedica.
manua f. (lat. imp.): poignée, M.L. 5329, 5330;
manua:lis: que la main peut tenir; manuel, maniable, M.L. 5331;
manua:le n.: étui de livres manuel; manua:rius, même sens que manua:lis, M.L. 5333; subst.(populaire, argot?),
manua:rius "voleur" (cf. manuor, -a:ris: Laberius in mimis scripsit manuatus est pro furatus est, Gell. 16,7,2);
manu:tus: magnas manus habens (Gloss. ), cf. cornu:tus;
manua:tus (b.lat.): muni de mains;
manucium (mani-) n.: gant (Gloss.); M.L. 5333a *manucia:re;
manuciolum (cf. toutefois manipulus): petite poignée, bottillon, bouchon de paille, M.L.5334;
manulea (manuleus): manche de vêtement; manche de catapulte.
Dérivés: manulea:rius; manulea:tus.
Cf. encore manipulus, manufestus, etc., et les composés en man-, mal-, manceps, etc.;
malluuiae, et ceux, récents, en manu-,
manufactilis (St-Jér.),
manuinspex = kheiroskópos, manutigium (Cael. Aur. ),
manifolium: personacia, etc.;
voir aussi
M.L. 5335 manum leua:re,
5336 manu opera:re,
5337 manupara:re
5338 manupastus,
5340 manutene:re;
5299a *manibella.
comminus: Vég.Mil.3,23 comminus, hoc est manu ad manum, pugnatur Terme de la l. militaire; c'est surtout pour désigner une lutte ou l'on est aux prises que l'adv. est employé (cf. gr. en khensín). Le sens de "près" est dérivé, de même celui de "aussitôt" que Servius, ad G. 104, affirme être en usage dans la Gaule cisalpine. V. Brugmann, IF 27,243 a:minus: sans en venir aux mains, eminus fundis sagittis reliquisque telis pugnabatur, Cés., BC 1,26,1. Puis "de loin, à distance". Comminus, e:minus sont sans doute d'anciens adj. composés, dont le nomin. est demeuré comme adverbe invariable.
Manus figure encore comme second terme de composé dans anguimanus (Lucr.) "à la trompe semblable à un serpent";
u:ni-, quadri-, centimanus (= ekatógkheir, Hor. Ov.); Lucrèce, Horace, Ovide déclinent angui-, centimanus, -u:s à l'imitation des composés grecs en -kheir; les autres formes sont déclinées comme les adjectifs de la seconde déclinaison. Les noms de la "main" diffèrent suivant les langues. De même que les types de skr. hástah. et de gr. kheír (v. hortus) ont des correspondants seulement dans deux aires dialectales étroites (v. cependant praesto:), lat. manus n'a de correspondants que dans les dialectes occidentaux. Le mot est italique, en partie thème en -u- comme en latin: ombr. manuv-e "in manu:", en partie thème en -i-: osq. manim "manum", en partie thème consonantique: ombr. manf ( acc.pl. ). L'ablatif ombr. mani "manu:" est ambigu, parce que les thèmes ombriens en -u- ont tous l'ablatif en -i-. Le thème man- se retrouve dans lat. mancus, man-ceps, man-do:, man-sue:tus, man~te:le, malluuiae. En ombrien, on a mani nertru "manu: sinistra:" au masculin. Hors de l'italique, cf. v.isl. mund (fém.) "main" et mundr (masc.) "droit de tutelle qu'on a sur la fiancée grâce au prix payé", v. angl. mund, v.h.a. munt "main" et "tutelle, protection" (noter le sens juridique, à rapprocher de manceps, mancipium; sur irl. montar, v. sous mando:), il y a ici le thème consonantique *mn.- élargi par un suffixe. Le type en -u- de manus rappelle celui de got. handus. - Le nom de la "main" est en général féminin (le genre masculin de skr. hástah. est secondaire). - En celtique, on a le dérivé corn. manal "gerbe"; pour le sens, cf. manipulus. Cf. aussi gr. máre: "main"?
...
manipulus (-plus), -i: m.:
1° poignée, et spécialement poignée de tiges que le moissonneur prend de la main gauche pour la couper avec la main droite; gerbe, botte;
2° étendard, enseigne d'une compagnie, parce que, disait-on, sous Romulus c'était une botte de foin portée sur une pique, cf.Ov., F.3,116-118; Rich, s.u. Peut-être plaisanterie de la langue militaire, la hampe que tient le porte-étendard étant assimilée à une poignée qui emplit la main? En tout cas, comme cohors, terme emprunté à la l. rustique;
3° manipule, compagnie: manipulus, exercitus minima manus quae unum sequitur signum, Varr., L.L.5,88. Manipulus dont la formation n'apparaissait pas a été traité comme un diminutif de manus, d'où manuculus, commanuculus, et peut-être manuciolum (-lus, v. manus). Attesté depuis Pl. Les formes romanes remontent à manupulus, manuculus, M.L. 5306.
Dérivés et composés:
manipulo:, -a:s;
manipulo:sus;
manipula:ris (-pla:ris), -rius, et
com-manipulus, -la:ris, -lo:, -o:nis;
manipula:tim.
Cf. encore M.L. 5305 *manipellus.
Composé de manus dont le second terme est obscur (cf. pleo:?) et populus? Pour le sens, cf. corn. manal "gerbe" (v. H.Pedersen, V.G.d.k. Spr. I p.493).'
My own suspicion is that the *maN- root is identical to Ruhlen's supposed Proto-World *mano- "man, people" (15. in
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=109221
) and the Celtic/Germanic/Slavic/Finno-Permian "many" word Schrijver mentions in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62677
; in any case, the origin of the Italic *man- "hand" must be from the command or servitude term *maN- and not the reverse. This means BTW that the Latin manipulus becomes a (almost) cognate of English 'manifold'.
BTW, cf. on the Fr. gerbe "sheaf" sense of *maN-
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/49041
cf. 'shock troops'
And since I propose this root belonged to or was transferred through the ar-/ur- language, I can assume an a/u alternation in it.
Ernout-Meillet:
'mu:nio:: v. moene.
1° mu:nis, -e (ancien *moinis, moenis): qui accomplit sa charge ou son devoir, cf.P.F.127,7, munem significare certum est officiosum; unde e contrario immunis dicitur qui nullo fungitur officia; Pl. Mer. 105, dico eius pro meritis gratum me et munem fore. Adjectif rare et refait secondairement sur les composés du type normal immu:nis, commu:nis (de mu:nus, cf. barba/imberbis).
1° immu:nis,-e (noté inmoenis dans Pl. Tri. 24): exempt de charge;
quelquefois synonyme de ingra:tus (à cause du double sens de mu:nus "charge" et "présent", v. le mot; de là le sens de mu:nis dans Mer. 105), cf. Pl. 1.1., amicum castigare ob meritam noxiam | inmoene est facinus; et la glose du P.F.97,18, inmunis, uacans munere aliquotiens pro improbo ponitur ut apud Plautum; et le scoliaste de Cic. Sest. 57,
o immunes Grai. Et haec uerba sunt de tragoedia, in qua uerbum istud "immunes" ingratos significat quemadmodum munificos dicebant esse nos qui grati et liberales existerent. Par dérivation "exempt de, exempté de"; traduit en poésie le gr. ámmoros (Ov. M. 13,292). De là immu:nita:s.
2° commu:nis,-e (graphie étymologique comoinem dans le SC. Bacc):
1e sens ancien devait être "qui partage les charges", mais ce sens n'est pas attesté, et commu:nis ne signifie que "commun" (par oppos. à proprius), et correspond au gr. koinós, e.g. Ter., Ad. 804, communia esse amicorum inter se omnia. De ce sens général sont dérivés des sens spéciaux:
1° dans la l. grammaticale: genus commune, syllaba commu:nis (= anceps), uerbum commune;
2° dans la l. de rhétorique: locus commu:nis = tópos koinós.
Du sens de "commun, qui est partagé entre tous" sont issus les sens de "bienveillant"; commuis infimis, par principibus, Corn. Nep., Att.3,1; et aussi de "médiocre, vulgaire", et même, dans la l. eccl., de "sale, impur" (traduisant akáthartos, koinós). Le neutre commune traduit tò koinón. M.L. 2091.
Dérivés:
commu:niter; commu:nita:s (= koinóte:s);
communio:, -o:nis, mot de Cic. au sens de "communauté" repris par la l. eccl. au sens de "communion", d'où
excommu:nis, -nio:-, -o:nis, synonymes de
excommu:ni-ca:tus, -ca:tio:;
celt.: irl. comman, britt. cymmun.
Il a dû exister aussi un adj. dérivé *mu:nicus (*moenicus), cf. ci:uis/cïuicus, hostis/hosticus, amnis/amnicus, classis/classicus, attesté en osque múíníkú. Du reste l'abrégé de Festus, P.F.141,1; a la glose municas pro communicas dicebant, qui atteste l'existence en latin d'un dénominatif mu:nico:, -a:re; et l'on trouve dans le Gloss. de Plac., CGL V 33,13, moenicare, communicare, dictum a moeni<i>s i.e. operibus, qui a encore l'ancienne diphtongue. C'est de *com-mu:nicus (et non de commu:nis qui aurait donné commu:nio:) qu'a-été dérivé commu:nico: (sans doute pour éviter une confusion avec commu:nio: de munio:) "communiquer" (sens absolu et transitif) adopté par la l. de l'Église, demeuré dans les l. romanes, sous la forme *commu:nica:re (commi:-) qui y a le sens de "donner le repas du soir" (pris en commun). M.L. 2090. De là: commu:nica:bilis, -tio:, -ti:uus, -to:, -to:rius; excommu:nico: (l. eccl.), d'où irl. escoimne, britt. escymmum.
2° mu:nia, -ium (arch. moenia) pl.n.: même sens que mu:nera "fonctions officielles, devoirs, charges d'un magistrat". La langue classique n'emploie le mot qu'au nom. acc.; les formes de gén. et de dat. abl. sont fournies par mu:nera. Sur mu:nia a été bâti un nomin. sg. mu:nium qu'on trouve dans les gloses, traduit par leitourgía CGL II 504,37; 361,40. Ce n'est qu'à basse époque (IIIe et IVe s. de l'empire)
que l'on trouve des génitifs mu:nium et mu:nio:rum, des dat. abl. mu:nibus et mu:nii:s. Mu:nia est un archaïsme de la l. officielle; la forme vivante est mu:nus, -eris. Conservé en logoud. et campid., M.L. 5751.
3° mu:nus, -eris (pl. arch. moenera dans Lucr. 1,29) n.: - significat <officium> cum dicitur quis munere fungi. Item donum quod officii causa datur, P.F.125,18. Le sens de "présent que l'on fait" (et non
que l'on reçoit) est secondaire, mais très fréquent; de là: mu:neralis (le:x); mu:nero:, -a:s (et mu:neror) "faire présent de"; re:mu:nero: (-ror) "récompenser, gratifier", et leurs dérivés, M.L. 5750a; mu:nusculum (Cic).
Les devoirs d'un magistrat consistant notamment dans les spectacles offerts au peuple, mu:nus a souvent le sens de "représentation, jeux offerts, combat de gladiateurs". De là, à l'époque impériale, mu:nera:rius: relatif aux spectacles de gladiateurs, mu:nera:tor: celui qui donne des spectacles de gladiateurs; -tio:.
Composés en mu:ni-: mu:niceps m.: proprement "celui qui prend part aux charges", cf. P.F.117,8, item municipes erant, qui ex aliis ciuitatibus Romam uenissent, quibus non licebat magistratum capere, sed tantum muneris partem, ut fuerunt Cumani, Acerrani, Atellani, qui et ciues Romani erant, et in legione merebant, sed dignitates non habebant. Par extension "habitant d'un municipe", mu:nicipium. Autres dérivés: mu:nicipa:lis; et (tardifs) mu:nicipa:tus (= políteuma), -pa:tim, -pa:tio: mu:nicipiolum;
mu:nidator (CE 511); mu:nifex; 1° -es, milites qui munera facere coguntur (Vég.Mil. 2,6), sens auquel se rattache mu:nificium; 2° syn. de mu:nificus; mu:nificus: qui accomplit les devoirs de sa charge; généreux (cf. beneficus); d'où munifico:, -a:s; -ficentia; immu:nificus (Pl.).
D'une racine *mei- "changer, échanger", attestée par lette miju, mi:t "échanger", skr. ni-mayate "il échange", l'indo-européen a eu des dérivés en -n- qui sont largement représentés; ces mots ont servi à désigner des échanges réglés par l'usage, et plusieurs ont une valeur juridique. A lat. mu:nia "fonctions officielles d'un magistrat" cf. v.irl. móin "objet précieux" (dag-móini "dons, bienfaits") et ga:th. mae:nis^ "punition" (?). L'élargissement par *-es- dans mu:nus est propre au latin; *-nes- figure souvent dans des substantifs de la même classe sémantique que mu:nus, ainsi fe:nus, facinus, pignus. Lat. com-mu:nis est fait comme got. gamains "commun"; autre composé im-mu:nis. Le lituanien a mai~nas "échange" et le slave me^na "changement". La racine est souvent élargie: v. migro: et muto:.'
Another example of a loaned "limb" word is Slavic *glazU- "eye"
Gol/a,b, the Origins of the Slavs, pp. 362-363
'A List of Germanic Loanwords in Proto-Slavic
A) First period: borrowings from Eastern Proto-Germanic and Early Gothic, before the 2nd century A.D. (Kuryl/owicz's layer I).
...
2) glazU primarily 'shining pebble,' attested only in North Slavic:17
ORuss. glazky stekljanyi 'Glaskügelchen,'
Russ. glaz 'Auge' (undoubtedly a secondary metaphoric and euphemistic use),
Pol. glaz 'Kieselstein; Probierstein; Felsenstück,'
OCz. hlazec 'roteris' (a stone).
The word is most probably borrowed from prehistorical
NGermc. *gla:za- 'Beistein' (cf.
OE glær 'Berstein, Harz,'
MLG gla:r 'das aus den Bäumen tröpfelnde Harz,' and an earlier PGermc. form
*gle:sa-, attested by Tacitus: "Aestii...soli omnium sucinum, quod ipsi glesum vacant...legunt");
for details and discussion see Kiparsky (1934:172-74 and 1958:23) and Martynov (loc. cit., 63-65). There are some hesitations in accepting glazU, as an early Germc. loanword because it has mobile stress in Russian, but the geography of the word seems to indicate its connection with the ancient amber-trade, whose centers were at the southern Baltic coast.'
Personally, I think the word is from Aestian, since Tacitus tells us so.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64397
That also saves us the trouble of explaining the a/e alternation (Rozwadowski's change?) and the fact that the mobile stress required to explain the root's Verner alternation -s-/-r- is attested in Slavic (Russian, with -z- even), not in some PIE form. The word occurs in the list of Verner-alternating Germanic nouns cited by Schaffner,
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62159
and I think this strengthens (along with the many /a/'s) the suspicion that they are all actually loans (from Venetic?).
>
> > > (The sources readily available to me all derive it, if at all,
> > > from *h2weh1- 'to blow'.)
> >
> > So does de Vries, I discover after looking first in the wrong
> > place
> > 'vængi n. 'kajute' (poet.), nschw. da. vinge 'flügel'.
> > Zu vængr m. 'flügel, fittich, ausbau am hause',
> > (< urn. *wa:ingja),
> > nisl. vængur, far. vongur,
> > nnorw. veng 'flugel, kajute', dial. auch 'ausbau',
> > > me. weng, wing, ne wing (Bjorkman 225); >
> > lpN. væn,n,ga 'kajute' (Qvigstad 353).
> > Zur idg. wzl *we: 'wehen', vgl. vindr I,'
> > Skeat has
> > 'Lit. "wagger" or flapper; nasalised form from the base WIG, as in
> > Got. gawigan, to shake (pt.t. gawag). Allied to Wag'
> >
> > I'm not impressed by the "blow" etymology, and I suspect you
> > aren't either. Obviously the "on the side" sense was there from
> > the beginning in ON (cf. the "cabin" sense).
>
> As was the "wing" sense, so this tells nothing about which was the
> original.
And that's the problem with trying to prove the "limb" > "army/society part" hypothesis the Popper way by eliminating its opposite. Therefore we'll have to make do with the Occam way of preferring the hypothesis which explains the most with the least assumptions.
Here's my attempt:
The traditionally assumed roots *weng- (> PGmc *wing-) "wing" (both senses) and *wang- "cheek; side pieces"
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/35458
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/45312
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61961
could be related via Rozwadowski's change (e/a alternation, see the thread starting in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65418
) in an original (PPIE) *wang- "(sloping) meadows/banks on both sides of a river" (and be Venetic? cf. Vangede in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/57206
) from which a metaphorical use of "something belonging on both sides on something" could be derived. This allows us to derive both the *weng- "wing" and *wang- "cheek" sense from one single root. This is not possible in the "body part" > "part of society/army" hypothesis.
> > > > The basic distinction in military disciple, as manifested
> > > > in the command language of parades is between being
> > > > directly subordinated to the will of a superior, and being
> > > > "on your own time" (within limits, of course). The
> > > > mode-changing commands are 'Attention' and 'At ease'. For
> > > > an army, getting through the landscape in a single file is
> > > > done on your own time, so to speak, like the legions of
> > > > Varus did at Kalkriese. Calling that formation, or rather
> > > > non-formation "an arrangement of soldiers" is therefore
> > > > misleading. It is, if anything, a lack of arrangement.
> > >
> > > I think that you'll have a hard time persuading anyone who's
> > > actually served.
> >
> > I did.
>
> So did I. And being "on your own time" does not change the fact
> that a soldier is still part of the command chain,
which is what I meant by 'within limits, of course'
> and that would appear to be the relevant structure here (soldier
> vs. civil).
Are you deliberately 'misunderstanding' me? Of course 'At ease' doesn't turn you into a civilian.
> Not rigid geometrical formations.
?? I'll repeat my above question. I was talking about being under immediate command, from which the geometrical formation would follow. In that connection the single line is a lack of geometrical formation.
> Feel free to provide attestations to the contrary.
I don't feel any obligation to provide attestations to your miscontrued representations of my hypothesis.
>
> > > all that we actually know is
> > > that the color term is from the feminine name. The example
> > > itself is irrelevant: the color term in question is hardly
> > > basic vocabulary, and a personal name is not an example of a
> > > sophisticated cultural concept.
> >
> > I was trying to match John's example. Will 'purple'
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple
> > meet your standards?
>
> A purple pigment is very much a technological advancement. See also
> (l)azure, carmine, etc.
Yes.
> You're probably aware that "red" by contrast is one of the more
> basic color terms.
Yes. None the less, 'purple' is an color term in English.
> > > > > I don't see you even trying to explain there how a single
> > > > > *L could yield all of *g *gl *dVl *d *l etc.
> > > > I assume you already know that the /L/ is meant to denote
> > > > an unvoiced /l/.
>
> Yes.
>
> > > > That's a rather rare phoneme, and tends
> > > > to get substituted with exactly those combination when
> > > > words containing it are loaned.
>
> How /gl/, /d/ etc. if it's voiceless?
It is interesting that the stops in the reflexes are voiced (except in the 'interpret, popularize' sense). I'm not sure of the nature of '/L/-like' phoneme I posited in my reconstruction.
> Why several different substitution variants in one language?
Several loan paths.
> How do you motivate the substitutions that don't preserve the
> laterality?
Cluster simplification. What need would there be to preserve the laterality?
> Why does the simple /s/ not appear among them?
Why would it? But *sl- does, cf. Da. sløse etc in the therad starting in
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/44457
> Is transferring laterality to the coda of the syllable actually
> attested in similar subsitutions?
I'm not sure what you mean here. If it's why we seems to get *tel-/*del- etc from the *L-, it's presumably because the loan substitution *tl-/*dl- was interpreted as zero grade of an imaginary root *tel-/*del- (which therefore 'became real').
> Is there any independant reason to think pre-IE languages had
> lateral obstruents?
No, it seeems my hypothesis pretty much exhausts the PIE supply of *tl-/*dl- roots, so we have no linguistic reasons to think that.
> Can we estabilish reoccurence for any of these substitution
> patterns, preferrably in regular correspondence to one another?
See above.
Torsten