From: george knysh
Message: 65678
Date: 2010-01-18
--- On Sun, 1/17/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> In the Wikipedia article on the NWB one reads the following:
>
> "Kuhn noted that since [PIE] /b/ was very rare, and since this PIE
> /b/, via Grimm's law, is the only source of regularly inherited
> /p/'s in words in Germanic languages, the many words with /p/'s
> which do occur must have some other language as source."
Actually, I wrote that.
****GK: That's perfectly OK.****
> In cybalist message 65652, one reads: "the Grimm sound shift ...
> took place, judging from placenames in W Germany and the
> Netherlands, no earlier than the 1st cent. BCE."
>
> It seems to me that the Germanization of the NWB took place after
> the Grimm sound shift. otherwise the /p/ words and toponyms would
> also have been subject to it. Which means that the incoming Germani
> already spoke a language with the familiar "Germanic" consonants.
> If this shift occured "no earlier than the 1rst c. BCE" then the
> invasion and Germanization of the area took place still later.
Actually, that's how I date the sound shift.
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/29016
****GK: But if the doublets are from the NWB area why could this not simply suggest that Grimm/Verner arrived there with the colonists (and the earlier forms survived) but actually emerged earlier in the colonists' homeland?*****
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/27873
> There are problems with this. Many linguists believe that Grimm
> much antedates 100 BCE
Without giving any reason.
****GK: What about Piotr's points in http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/1957 ****
> And this is in line with the Wikipedia notion that the NWB area
> west of Jastorf was "Germanized" (post-Grimm) before 100 BCE:
>
> "In the final centuries BCE, areas formerly occupied by the Elp
> culture emerge as the probably Germanic Harpstedt culture west[6]
> of the Germanic Jastorf culture" But Harpstedt-Nienburg succeeds
> Elp a little earlier than 500 BCE...
Translating this in on my to-do list:
http://de.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Harpstedt- Nienburger_ Gruppe
'Von Befürwortern der umstrittenen Nordwestblock- Theorie wird dem Gebiet der Harpstedt-Nienburge r Gruppe eine oder mehrere eigene Sprachen zugeordnet, die erst im letzten Jahrhundert vor der Zeitenwende durch eine kleine germanische Oberschicht germanisiert wurde. Sie nehmen damit im Gegensatz zur herrschenden Ansicht eine dritte indogermanische Kultur im nördlichen Europa an. Sie kann keiner anderen Untersprachfamilie zugeordnet werden, allerdings gibt es in einem kleinen Teil des Gebiets venetisch klingende Ortsnamen, so daß eine Verwandtschaft zum Venetischen als am wenigsten unwahrscheinliche Verbindung gilt.'
"Proponents of the disputed Nordwestblock theory assign one or several local languages to the area of the Harpstedt-Nienburg group, which only in the last century before our era was Germanicized by a small Germanic upper layer. They thus assume, contrary to the prevailing opinion, a third IE culture in Northern Europe. It can't be assigned to any other language subfamily, however in a small part of the area there are Venetic sounding place names, so that it being related to Venetic is considered to be the least improbable relation."
> Wikipedia also notes that nothing has yet been finally decided,
> that discussion is still possible.
>
Yeah, right
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Talk:Nordwestblo ck
'NEW SOURCES?
Wanted some English sources. I can't read or evaluate the main German references given. In addition there may be something translatable in the following references BUT I can't read them: Goldenrowley 03:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
* Hans Kuhn , Vor- und frühgermanisch Ortsnamen in Nord-Deutschland und die Niederlanden, Westfälische Forschungen, 12, pp. 5 - 44, 1959. (German)
* Hans Kuhn, Rolf Hachmann et Georg Kossack, Völker zwischen Germanen und Kelten. Schriftquellen, Bodenfunde und Namengute zur Geschichte des nördlischen Westdeutschlands um Christi Geburt, Neumünster, Karl Wachholz, 1962. (German)
* Wolfgang Meid, Hans Kuhn "Nordwestblock" Hypothese: zur Problematik der Völker zwischen Germanen und Kelten", in Germanenproblem in heutiger Sicht, Berlin, De Gruyter, 1986. (German)'
Torsten