From: george knysh
Message: 65674
Date: 2010-01-17
--- On Sun, 1/17/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- On Sat, 1/16/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> >
> > This fellow is indeed quite hopeless...
> >
> > --- On Sat, 1/16/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > > GK: The problem with you ,Torsten, is that you seem incapable
> > > of understanding that what you consider "disproof" is
> > > scientifically inadequate.
> >
> > I haven't said anything of what I consider 'disproof', so I
> > wonder what that's supposed to mean.
> >
> > > The standard view, which apparently dissatisfies you, is that
> > > there is no evidence of any significant Sarmatian influx into
> > > the area of the Przeworsk culture. You have been unable to
> > > point to anything except "inhumations" , and that per se, is
> > > not a defining Sarmatian trait.
> >
> > 1) the suddenly appearing upper layer in Przeworsk is
> > characterized by inhumation and expensive Roman grave goods.
> >
> > 2) the graves of the Golden Cemetery are characterized by
> > inhumation and expensive Roman grave goods.
> >
> > Nothing characteristically 'Sarmatian' about either.
> >
> >
> > Cf.
> > http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/64735
> >
> > The Przeworsk inhumations are not of any known Sarmatian type,
> > unlike those of the Kuban. Elementary science, too complicated
> > for our Odin fan.
>
> Your evidence for that is that in
> http://kronk. narod.ru/ library/guschina -zasetskaya- 1994.htm
> there appears a line
> Priloz^enie 2. Svodnaja tablitsa po dannym pogrebIlanyx sooruz^enij
> katakombnogo tipa
> or, according to Google translate (slightly improved)
> Appendix 2. Summary table of data of burial structures of the
> catacomb type.
> which you take to prove that the Kuban graves were of the catacomb
> type. Maybe you should read the book first?
>
>
> ****GK: The tables of contents is clear enough.
That's a no, then. I'll see if I can get it.
> There is an abundant literature on "catacomb type" graves of the
> late BCE and early CE in Eastern Europe. They are Alanic. And there
> is also a literature on other Sarmatian grave types. Maybe you
> should read this.
I think I'll start with the above.
> Then you would not automatically say
> "Sarmatians! " when reading of "inhumations" ... Ooops. my mistake.
> Of course you would, you can't help it. The Odin scenario requires
> it.*****
But that's what I said all the time: I'm trying to see if there is a scenario which take the those Medieval chronicles into account, specifically Snorri and Saxo. It seems to me there are three possible points in time where it could have taken place:
1) around 80-70 BCE (the Ariovistus option)
2) around 50 CE (the collapse of Vannius' state)
3) around 200 CE (after the Marcomannic wars)
*****GK: As long as one is fantasizing on the basis of mediaeval inventions (which MAY in part reflect folk memories though students of such doubt if anything can be "remembered" in this way after ca. 500 years...[hence Snorri could at best have embroidered on "folk memories" going back to ca.600 CE or thereabouts, which is how some scholars interpret his Vanakvisl et sim.), and wants to discover some east->west connection for the spread of (Pre-Proto-Para-whatever)-Germanic, why not speculate on the basis of the spread westward from the PIE homeland? There is a bit of archaeological backing for this, but it would take one back to the IVth millennium BCE... The three scenarios mentioned above all hit similar snags: they conflict (sometimes severely) with known hitorical and archaeological facts.) Similarly, the PVL's Nestor incorporated genuine remembrances of late 5th c. events (nothing else survived except what he invented or found in written sources.
There is no reason to think that Snorri or Saxo or Herodotus' informant about "1,000 years ao in Scythia" were exceptions.) But the possibility of some vague recollection of an exit from the PIE homeland (with no specifics: all that would be later embroiderings) sounds intriguing. Perhaps it too is an illusion.****