--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > Having done some poking around at <Chatti> and <Mattium>, I have
> > not found a credible continuation of <Chatti> at all. The name
> > seems to have died out when the remnants of the tribe merged into
> > the Franks. The name <Hassi>, <Hessi>, etc. (first <ad Chassus>
> > 699) cannot be the same, despite valiant attempts by several
> > scholars to rationalize the -ss-. This is in contrast to
> > <Chattuarii>, which does have several secure continuations.
>
> It cannot be the same *Germanic* word, I suppose you mean. It is most likely the same word in the donor language, whichever that was. I've argued that the *kant- "regiment, flank, people" word ultimately is a wanderword, since it occurs all the way through Asia, along with *LuN- "(unordered) file, whole people", but I think I recall that the -tt-/-ss- alternation existed only in Europe.
>
> Kuhn's 'Chatti und Mattium, die langen Tenues des Altgermanischen' is in the file section, for those interested (Brian?).
I do have a copy of the paper, and Kuhn raises several issues which I have planned for several months to address in separate postings. I will summarize some of these matters today.
First, regarding (unshifted) Proto-Germanic long tenues, I believe they pass through Grimm-Verner-Kluge unscathed to remain Common Germanic long tenues. I have only two examples. The first, Gothic <atte:kan> 'to touch' (commonly cited in the simplex, which is not attested) in my view involves PGmc *at-te:g-, by sandhi from *ad-te:g-, from PIE *teh2g-. Details are in my posting on 'take'. The second is the set of 'up' words with *-pp-, which I regard as resulting from a double preposition in PGmc.
Second, regarding <Chatti> and <Chattuarii>, I think both are regular Gmc. formations, with -tt- from Kluge's Law, and the second probably does mean 'Hutleute' as Kluge suggested. I am not sure if <Chatti> has to do with helmets or hats, however. Conceivably it meant 'Joined Ones' or the like. This needs more work. Kuhn has legitimate questions about 'rain', 'thane', and some other words, including the dreaded 'oven', but Kluge's Law works quite well as an explanation for a large number of Gmc. words, and rather than discarding it, I think we should try to handle the apparent exceptions individually.
Third, regarding <Mattium>, <Mattiacum>, and <Mettis>, I think the base *matti- is non-IE, but I do not connect it with French <motte> 'hill' and the like. I think instead it belongs with West Mediterranean *matta 'reed', 'reedy spot', 'underbrush' etc., also 'reed mat' whence Latin <matta> and secondary borrowings into Gmc. languages. The toponomastic use of <-metz> in former Chattic territory (discussed somewhat by Arnold, Ansiedlungen) does not fit 'hill' very well, but 'reedy spot' works for place-names like <Aumetz>. The Chattic personal name <Gandestrius> probably contains WMed *ganda 'gravel', 'scree', 'sterile land' etc. but the rest of it looks like IE suffixation, cf. Lat. <terrestris> etc. We do have *ganda in a few place-names and the apa-name <Gennep> as well. In my view the Chatti spoke a Gmc. dialect, and before them a non-Gmc. IE-speaking group was there, and before them a non-IE group.
As for related matters like roots with two Gmc. tenues, 'cot' and such, these should probably be addressed one example at a time.
DGK