--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > > I think nobody has paid enough attention to the great similarity
> > > between the roots *(H1)leudh- and *teutéHa-, both meaning
> > > 'people'.
> > >
> > > The alternation between *l/*t could be explained as being
> > > different reflexes of a former lateral affricate *tL. Starostin-
> > > Nikolayev's PNC *HittL'i:wV(-l/V)
> > > http://tinyurl.com/y8bocbv
> > > 'root, seed; kin' would fit nicely here.
> >
> > Hm.
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/44457
> >
> > > ??????
> >
> > I suppose it's the semantics that makes you balk.
> > I thought I had already posted an idea of mine that *lew-dh-
> > "people" thing was a derivative of *lew- "loose", ie. separate,
> > independent (and therefore in some way semantically connected
> > with "leaf"), but I can't find it. Here at least are some of the
> > other deeds I'd ascribe to this root:
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/53477
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/51202
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/54560
> >
> Mallory & Adams quote *H1leudh- 'to grow' and *teuHa- 'to swell' as
> the base root.
>
> The meaning 'leaf' is quite compatible with PNC *HittL'i:wV(-l/V).
> In fact, I think Basque horri '(large) leaf' could be related to it.
>
Since I prefer to assume loans over inheritance, I will start further down the tree with a loan of a form something like *tlun,W-, unsuffixed *tlukW; there are some words I'd like to connect.
Note the pair German deuten "interpret" / deutsch "German"
(<- "popular").
Vasmer
'tólk, -u 'Sinn, Begriff, Meinung, Lehre',
tolkovátI, -úju 'deute, interpretiere',
ukr. tol/k, tol/kuváty,
aruss. tUlkU
1. 'Deutung, Auslegung'. 2. 'Dolmetscher,'
abulg. tlUkU hermeneús (Supr.),
ksl. tlUkovati,
bulg. tUlkúvam (Mladonov 644).
Aus dem Russ. entlehnt sind:
lit. tùlkas 'Dolmetscher',
lett. tul~ks,
estn. tulk,
mnd. tolk,
anord. tulkr dass.,
ndl. tolk,
s. M.-Endz. 4, 259, E. Schwarz Archiv 41, 41, Holthausen Awn. Wb. 308, Falk-Torp 1269. ||
Man vergleicht *tUlkU als urverw. mit
ir. ad-tluch 'danken', totluch 'bitten',
lat. loquor, locu:tus sum, loqui: 'spreche, sage, nenne',
ferner mit
aind. tarkas m. 'Vermutung',
tarkáyati 'vermutet, sinnt nach',
s. Pedersen Kelt. Gr. 1, 43, Uhlenbeck Aind. Wb. 109, Mladenov 644, Matzenauer 347. Bedenken bei Meillet-Ernout 652, Walde-Hofmann 1, 821, Muller 230.
Über das von Blankenstein IF. 23, 134 verglichene anord. þulr 'Redner, Dichter, Weiser' vgl. Holthausen Awn. Wb. 321. Es besteht kein Grund, die slav. Sippe aus dem Keltischen herzuleiten (gegen S^achmatov Archiv 33, 93).
...
tolmác^, -á 'Dolmetscher, Übersetzer',
tolmác^itI 'übersetzen',
ukr. towkmác*^yty dass. (nach tol/k),
aruss, tUlmac^I 'Dolmetscher',
tolmác^ oft 16.17. Jhdt.
(Skaz. M. II, s. S^ambinago PM.9, Gagara 78, Kotcs^ichin u. a.), kr.-glagol. tlUmac^I,
bulg. tUl/mác^,
skr. túmâc^ G. tumác^a, tumác^iti, 1 s. tùmâc^îm,
sloven. tol/mác^, tol/mác^iti, 1 s. tol/mâc^im,
c^ech. tlumac^, tlumoc^iti,
slk. tlmac^, tlmoc^it´,
poln. tl/umacz, tl/umaczyc´,
osorb. tol/mac^, tol/mac^ic´. ||
Alte Entlehnung *tUlmac^I aus dem Turkotatar. Vgl.
kuman. tylmac^,
kirg. tilmäs^,
tel. alt. tilmäc^,
osman. dilmac^,
uigur. tilmä3^i
(s. Radioff Wb. 3, 1091, 1390, 1770), vgl.
Jyrkänkallio Studia Orientalia (Helsinki 1952) 17, 1ff.,
MiEW. 369, TEL 2,177, Mladenov 644.
Die Quelle der Sippe sucht man in
Mitanni talam 'Dolmetscher',
s. Kluge-Götze 109, Jyrkänkallio c. 1. An turkotat Herkunft des obigen Namens denkt Menges Orient. Elem. 52. Aus einer westslav. Sprache oder magy. tolmács entlehnt ist mhd. tolmetsche, nhd. Dolmetsch, s. Kluge-Götze c. 1., Lokotsch 162. Der ON. ukr. Tolmac^, poln. Tl/umacz in Galizien (Barsov M. 199 stammt offenbar vom turkotat. Stammesnamen Tolmac^, s. oben tolkoviny.'
That was the 'deuten' "interpret; translate" sense.
Now for the "people" sense:
tol/oká, Acc. tól/oku 'Brachfeld, Trift',
wruss. toloká,
bulg. tlaka
'Frohn, freiwillige Arbeit zu gegenseitiger Aushilfe,
Arbeit gegen Bewirtung',
skr. tláka, sloven. tláka, poln. tl/oka dass.,
auch 'Menge, Gedränge', ||
Urverw.: lit. talkà Acc. tal~ka,
'zusammengebetene Arbeitsgesellschaft',
lett. tàlka dass.,
kymr. talek 'granum contritum', ablautend mit
lit. telkiù, telkiau~, tel~kti 'eine talkà zusammenbitten',
aptìlke,s z^mogùs 'durchtriebener Mensch,
auch tolóc^I (s. d.),
vgl. Meillet Ét. 256, Trautmann BS1. 32,
Apr. Sprd. 445, M.-Endz. 4, 127 ff.,
Endzelin SIBEt. 198, Buga RFV. 75, 150,
Torbiörnsson 1, 101.
Zur Bed. verweist Mikkolic^ WS. 3, 86 auf schwed. träde 'Brachfeld', träda 'treten'. Siehe auch das folg.'
Cf. Latin lingua, OLat. dingua, so <- *dlingua?
and cf. Engl. 'talk'
BTW note in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu#Xiongnu_Hierarchy
the titles of the two lowest dignitaries:
dunghu (tung-hu) and gudu (ku-tu); apparently not leaders of 1000 and hundred, but higher up in the hierarchy.
Torsten