From: dgkilday57
Message: 65490
Date: 2009-12-03
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:My comment above was irrelevant to the matter at hand anyway, and since we have the Hunse staring us in the face, pointless.
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > Haste makes waste. I should have checked Emergewe in Google
> > > > Books before guessing. The prevailing view is that it is a
> > > > Schreibfehler;
> > >
> > > Apparently there was no other way for them to explain it.
> > >
> > > > one source cites as old forms of Emsgau: Emisga, Emisgowe,
> > > > Emisgewe, and the "ganz schlechte Schreibart" Emergewe.
> > >
> > > Value judgment.
> > >
> > > > Some details of the text are given by H. Jaekel, "Zur
> > > > Lexicologie des Altfriesischen", PBB 15:532-6 (1891):
> > >
> > > Note, Old Frisian. Non-Germanic survivals to be expected.
> >
> > The forms with -s- are already non-Germanic in origin, no?
>
> I claimed once that those on Schaffner's list
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62159
> were Aestian/Venetic
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65034
> so I'd better stick to it.
> > > > "Aus lanthura [i.e. 'land-tax'] hat der schreiber LanthusaUpon further thought, I have no simple way to get from the Old Frisian usage to the Danish. I placed too much importance on an unwarranted model of "feudalization" of the NWB area by Common Germanic speakers.
> > > > [a phantom place-name] gemacht.
> > >
> > > -husa? As far as I know, the "hire" word is without etymology,
> > > and first used in maritime vocabulary (so still in Danish). I
> > > propose it is a Verner doublet of *hu:s-ja- "to house", eg. "to
> > > hire" is to house sby, to take him into your household.
> >
> > I like that. Gmc. *xu:rjo: 'payment, land-tax' would originally be
> > 'payment for housing', pre-shifted *ku:syá: beside *kú:som 'house,
> > housing, building'. The restriction of *xu:rjo: and *xu:rjan 'to
> > pay for services, house, hire' to the NWB area suggests that
> > feudalism was imposed there when the Germans took over, AFTER Grimm
> > and Verner, with terminology that became obsolete elsewhere. What
> > we need is to identify more Gmc. words (as opposed to historically
> > NWB words) restricted to the NWB area in order to develop a fuller
> > theory of this takeover. Sailors presumably were escaping the
> > confines of feudalism. "Seeluft macht frei!"
>
> 'Hyre' v. in Da. is used in the sense of hiring sailors for a ship.
> 'Hyre' n. is the pay or the employment.
> > > > Er verwechselt s und r sehr haeufig; so schreibt er z.b.My explanation above is not particularly good, and in the meantime I ran across another /r/-form of 'Hunsegau', namely <Hunergo> cited by van den Bergh with no MS. date, but <Hunesco> is dated 996 (and the <c> is not necessarily an error, but may represent progressive devoicing). Our MS. of the Traditiones Fuldenses is from the 11th cent., but the forms in -gewe make it likely that the material came from an 8th-cent. text. The passage is "in pago Hunergewe in regione Fresonum". Now, if the forms <Hunergewe> and <Emergewe> are genuine old forms, not resulting from bad copying or reading, beside the simple river-names which ALWAYS have <s>, Hunesa, Hunese; Emesa, Emese, etc., we are most likely dealing with Verner doublets. The only way I can account for this is by presuming that the Gau-Formen were originally adjectival bahuvrihi-compounds rather than determinative tatpurus.a-compounds, or were modelled after bah.-cpds. That way the pre-shifted Proto-Germanic accent would have been on the stem-vowel of the first element, and Verner would have voiced the preceding /s/ in the Gau-Komposita. But the simple river-names would require the accent on the vowel BEFORE the /s/, which would prevent its voicing. Naturally, during historical times the Gau-Komposita would tend to level their first elements to the simple forms, so if this mechanism works, we must postulate that this little corner of East Friesland preserved some very archaic compounds by accident.
> > > > 'videmus' statt 'videmur',
> > >
> > > Could be bad grammar, not Schreibfehler.
> >
> > Or simple absent-mindedness, writing 'we see' for the less common
> > 'we seem'. I have not yet looked at the full text.
> >
> > > 'Wisaha' statt 'Wiraha',
> > >
> > > River? *Wis- is common in river names.
> >
> > And in Visburgii, Viscellae, Vispii. Unclear are Wiesbaden
> > (Uuisibada 830), Wiesenbronn (Wisibrunnen), and a few other names
> > upon which *wisu- 'good' may have had folk-etymological influence.
> > Perhaps even the Visigothi belong here. Streitberg rejected the
> > vulgate interpretation 'West Goths' in favor of 'Good Goths', but
> > the third century seems rather early for a stem-shift. For that
> > matter Ptolemy's <Ouisboúrgioi> seems much too early for the
> > stem-vowel syncope required if Streitberg's 'die gute Bergen
> > besitzenden' is correct.
> >
> > I did consider the possibility that <Wisaha> is copied right and
> > refers to some other stream than Wiraha. However, Jaekel seems to
> > know his East Frisian geography. The forms <Hunergewe> and
> > <Heterheim> are otherwise identical to those with -s-, and that is
> > not what we would predict for Gmc./NWB doublets. Indeed we have no
> > expectation of NWB words beginning with /h/ at all. If these are
> > genuine doublets not resulting from sloppy scribal s/r-Wechsel, the
> > most we can say is that some Old East Frisian dialect might have
> > rhotacized /s/ in this position. And actual rhotacism is not
> > really necessary. The original scribe might have performed false
> > phonemic analysis, regarding a mere voiced /s/ as closer to his own
> > /r/. All we could then conclude is that some allophones were heard
> > wrongly by a scribe accustomed to a different dialect. This is the
> > sort of thing represented by satirical spellings like
> > <Filhelmshawen> and <teschnich>.
> > > 'More' fuer 'Mose',Now at least two MSS.
> > >
> > > cf. German Moor, Engl. moor, Da. mose
> >
> > Point taken.
> >
> > > 'Wacheringe' fuer 'Wachesinge', 'Emergewe' fuer 'Emesgewe',
> > > 'Hunergewe' fuer 'Hunesgewe', 'Heterheim' fuer 'Hetesheim'."
> > >
> > > All place names, so rejecting the Verner variants here because
> > > they are supposedly Schreibfehler would be circular.
> >
> > They might not be Schreibfehler, but assuming that we have evidence
> > for Grimm without Verner, a Holy Grail for shift-daters, requires
> > much more than the peculiarities of a single MS.
> > > > Thus we cannot use Emergewe and Hunergewe as evidence for someYes, I should reread those papers, though at present I have my hands full with Mattium ... whenever I seem to be making headway, I just get clunked in the head.
> > > > "Verner-free" area.
> >
> > > I don't think Kuhn did that, rather he thought it showed
> > > vacillation, like Weser/Werra
> >
> > No problem with initial /w/. Big problem with initial /h/ in
> > supposedly non-Gmc. forms. The vacillation is areal at any rate.
>
> True that, but Kuhn also operates with half-Grimm'ed roots. Grimm in anlaut, not in auslaut or vice versa, whatever he thinks the mechanism is.
> > > > > Objection, they would, or at least within a sufficientlyAll right. My argument about York is weak. I need better evidence in favor of my own talking point, that the Grimm-Verner-Kluge set of changes was already complete before Gmc.-speakers invaded the NWB area.
> > > > > small distance that it was known to them; only as long as
> > > > > Grimm's law functioned as a sociological marker between the
> > > > > incoming elite and the locals would Grimm's law be applied to
> > > > > local place names, after the hierarchical relationship is
> > > > > established the upper class will feel they can 'afford' to
> > > > > pronounce local names the local way; this means only
> > > > > backwaters get to keep the original non-Grimm names. Cf.
> http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Shibbolethisation.html
> > > >
> > > > I was thinking along the lines of York (old Eboracum
> > > > 'Yewplace'). The initial /y/ was produced regularly in Old
> > > > Norse, but not when they dominated the place.
>
> Actually e: -> ie/ye is common in Danish dialects, presumably happened later than ON.