From: Torsten
Message: 65464
Date: 2009-11-25
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:Objection, they would, or at least within a sufficiently small distance that it was known to them; only as long as Grimm's law functioned as a sociological marker between the incoming elite and the locals would Grimm's law be applied to local place names, after the hierarchical relationship is established the upper class will feel they can 'afford' to pronounce local names the local way; this means only backwaters get to keep the original non-Grimm names. Cf.
> > > > > > *tout-/tu:t-s-k^ant-/-k^unt- (metathesis in Lith. tukst-
> > > > > > ?) in which *tout-/tu:t-s is genitive of *tout-/tu:t-
> > > > > > "all; totality" and ka^nt-/k^unt- is my usual "troop"
> > > > > > word is good enough for me. "Troop of all".
> > > > > > And I'm beginning to wonder whether the IE formant
> > > > > > -ent-/-ont- is related.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the time-depth in question, would we not expect the
> > > > > first element of such a compound to exhibit the stem-form,
> > > > > as in Alamanni, Alaric, Teutorix, etc.?
> > > >
> > > > Erh, what is the time depth in question? My idea is that the
> > > > whole *tout-/tu:t-s-k^ant-/-k^unt- thing is a loan anyway and
> > > > that that form is not necessarily the one the word had at the
> > > > time of borrowing (ie. it might have had some phonetic
> > > > development within the unknown donor language itself).
> > >
> > > It had to antedate Grimm's shift.
> >
> > Which happened around the beginning of our era, according to
> > Kuhn's data.
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/29016
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/34439
>
> If memory serves, the Ems is the Amisia in Tacitus, so Emer-gewe is
> to be expected; the form Ems must have had no vocalic extension
> after the stem, *ames- or whatever it was, thus no rhotacism. With
> Coriovallum/Heerlen and the like we have Celtic/Gmc. doublets which
> cannot reliably date the shift, since the Germans did not have to
> live there DURING the shift.
> Indeed if the shift occurred just as the Germans were expandingNo, as I said, only as long as Grimm is still a living process in the language community would it be applied to local place names, not after.
> into the NWB, we would expect all, or nearly all, of Kuhn's
> anlautend-/p/ words to have exact anlautend-/f/ equivalents.
> As for LL <toacula>, remodelling after <novacula> and similar wordsHm.
> explains the /k/.
> > > For me to be convinced that such a formation, with genitivalor the first element identical,
> > > /s/ between two consonants in the middle of a compound, could
> > > exist in any IE language at the time and place in question, I
> > > would need other plausible examples.
>
> All right, you gave me *dem-s-pot-, and if 'thousand' is parallel,
> its formation must be quite archaic.Also, for forms with reinterpreted genitive -s (all mass nouns), there's *iNg-s- "ice"
> > I have a suspicion that IE once had an endingless nominative,Are we talking about lammas, kuningas etc?
> > like a good accusative language should, and that the present -s
> > suffix is the old genitive suffix which being used in bound
> > constructions and that s-stems came about or formal subjects came
> > to be seen as a nominative marker, hence the confusing, which NB
> > is not constrained to IE, for some strange reason
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/63871
> > which same confusion is the reason for the appearance of IE
> > s-stems.
> >
> > And notice, BTW, that Finno-Ugric (etc) also has that mysterious
> > dental 'extension'.
>
> Mostly in place-names, so it is parallel to the dative /n/ in Gmc.
> names, if not to the FU locative. Hardly equivalent to your theory
> of PIE /s/.
> Thanks for quoting the interesting archaeological material, which IMe neither, a linguist's work is never done; sigh...
> have no time to discuss today, unfortunately; also I have no
> knowledge of loanword stratification in the Caucasian languages.